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What color combo is this lady wearing

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  • aoyama.narime
    Couple of questions on the ensemble pictured in the link below (I couldn t get the Japanese translated to English):
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 12, 2011
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      Couple of questions on the ensemble pictured in the link below (I couldn't get the Japanese translated to English):

      http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000035

      1) Is what she is wearing umezome (plum dyeing--five white robes with maroon linings) topped off with a maroon uwagi?

      2) Is there some reason why her hitoe and hakama are both maroon? Is it due to rank or age (is she a younger person) ?

      I'm working on a shibori project inspired by this ensemble and just wanted to know more about it.

      Thanks,
      Aoyama Narime (Jenn Oaks)
    • setsuko_iwashiro
      If I m not mistaken, she s wearing the clothes a princess would be married in:
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 12, 2011
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        If I'm not mistaken, she's wearing the clothes a princess would be married in: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iz2.or.jp%2Ffukushoku%2Ff_disp.php%3Fpage_no%3D0000035

        It doesn't look like umezome to me- you can see the bottoms of the ginu at her hem, and they aren't red; in the "lined" kasane I've seen at museums, etc., the entire bottom layer is lined like an awase kimono would be today.

        Perhaps it's a special kasane for the occasion? I've seen some ensemble- such as the ones worn by the priestess of Ise in Japanese reenactments- that don't seem to follow the normal rules... And if it's official reenactors at Kyoto festivals, I can't use the excuse of them not knowing what they're doing to explain it away.

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "aoyama.narime" <aoyama.narime@...> wrote:
        >
        > Couple of questions on the ensemble pictured in the link below (I couldn't get the Japanese translated to English):
        >
        > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000035
        >
        > 1) Is what she is wearing umezome (plum dyeing--five white robes with maroon linings) topped off with a maroon uwagi?
        >
        > 2) Is there some reason why her hitoe and hakama are both maroon? Is it due to rank or age (is she a younger person) ?
        >
        > I'm working on a shibori project inspired by this ensemble and just wanted to know more about it.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Aoyama Narime (Jenn Oaks)
        >
      • booknerd9
        ... Even though that s how it s translated, I m a little skeptical. The Heian marriage ceremony is described in the English translation but I don t know if
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 12, 2011
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "setsuko_iwashiro" <whitefeatherart@...> wrote:
          >
          > If I'm not mistaken, she's wearing the clothes a princess would be married in:

          Even though that's how it's translated, I'm a little skeptical. The Heian marriage ceremony is described in the English translation but I don't know if it's a "wedding outfit" as much as it's a semi-formal/not serving a princess type of outfit for a upper-rank Heian lady.
          I also remember reading somewhere (brain failing right now) is that different colored nagabakama would be worn depending on a woman's age and marital status. I think a young unmarried woman would wear dark redish nagabakama.
          Considering that the wedding 'ceremony' consisted of having your fiancee visit you, perhaps this is an outfit that would be appropriate for his visit.
          Just a guess though.
          As for the color combination, some robes were lined with the same color so these could be white robes lined with white- it's a little hard to see.
        • LJonthebay
          ... Most of us are non-Japanese-readers who are pretty much limited to what we know based on one chapter in Liza Dalby s Kimono: Fashioning Culture. That
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 12, 2011
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "setsuko_iwashiro" <whitefeatherart@...> wrote:
            >
            > Perhaps it's a special kasane for the occasion? I've seen some ensemble- such as the ones worn by the priestess of Ise in Japanese reenactments- that don't seem to follow the normal rules...

            Most of us are non-Japanese-readers who are pretty much limited to what we know based on one chapter in Liza Dalby's "Kimono: Fashioning Culture." That chapter deals with a single source: Minamoto Masasuke's notes from c. 1160 on what his Empress should wear.

            There may be other historical sources that exist; then again, there may not be.

            I do seem to recall reading about darker nagabakama for younger women, but I can't remember the source. Will try to dig it out this weekend if I can.

            Saionji no Hana
            West Kingdom
          • setsuko_iwashiro
            Married women wore scarlet-red nagabakama; unmarried women wore maroon ones. This is mentioned here: http://sbuchler.livejournal.com/27997.html?thread=113757
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 12, 2011
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              Married women wore scarlet-red nagabakama; unmarried women wore maroon ones. This is mentioned here: http://sbuchler.livejournal.com/27997.html?thread=113757 I don't recall where else I've read it, but I've seen it cited in multiple reputable sources.

              There seem to be other sources beyond Masasuke's notes, because sites such as http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/5-2.htm and the book http://www.librarything.com/work/10895670/ (ISBN 9784416805442) deal with a few others, as well as specifying lining colors for some kasane which I had previously thought were unlined... I've also seen a few in photos taken at the Costume Museum (not the official site, but fan photos from Flickr and the like) with schemes I don't recognize- and while rentable "Heian" wedding dresses might take some artistic liberties, I don't think that the Kyoto Costume Museum would...

              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "LJonthebay" <wodeford@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "setsuko_iwashiro" <whitefeatherart@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Perhaps it's a special kasane for the occasion? I've seen some ensemble- such as the ones worn by the priestess of Ise in Japanese reenactments- that don't seem to follow the normal rules...
              >
              > Most of us are non-Japanese-readers who are pretty much limited to what we know based on one chapter in Liza Dalby's "Kimono: Fashioning Culture." That chapter deals with a single source: Minamoto Masasuke's notes from c. 1160 on what his Empress should wear.
              >
              > There may be other historical sources that exist; then again, there may not be.
              >
              > I do seem to recall reading about darker nagabakama for younger women, but I can't remember the source. Will try to dig it out this weekend if I can.
              >
              > Saionji no Hana
              > West Kingdom
              >
            • aoyama.narime
              Thank you for all your responses, and additional resources. I was making my guess based on what I read in Dalby s book. Thanks again, Aoyama
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 14, 2011
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                Thank you for all your responses, and additional resources. I was making my guess based on what I read in Dalby's book.

                Thanks again,
                Aoyama

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "setsuko_iwashiro" <whitefeatherart@...> wrote:
                >
                > Married women wore scarlet-red nagabakama; unmarried women wore maroon ones. This is mentioned here: http://sbuchler.livejournal.com/27997.html?thread=113757 I don't recall where else I've read it, but I've seen it cited in multiple reputable sources.
                >
                > There seem to be other sources beyond Masasuke's notes, because sites such as http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/5-2.htm and the book http://www.librarything.com/work/10895670/ (ISBN 9784416805442) deal with a few others, as well as specifying lining colors for some kasane which I had previously thought were unlined... I've also seen a few in photos taken at the Costume Museum (not the official site, but fan photos from Flickr and the like) with schemes I don't recognize- and while rentable "Heian" wedding dresses might take some artistic liberties, I don't think that the Kyoto Costume Museum would...
                >
                > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "LJonthebay" <wodeford@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "setsuko_iwashiro" <whitefeatherart@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Perhaps it's a special kasane for the occasion? I've seen some ensemble- such as the ones worn by the priestess of Ise in Japanese reenactments- that don't seem to follow the normal rules...
                > >
                > > Most of us are non-Japanese-readers who are pretty much limited to what we know based on one chapter in Liza Dalby's "Kimono: Fashioning Culture." That chapter deals with a single source: Minamoto Masasuke's notes from c. 1160 on what his Empress should wear.
                > >
                > > There may be other historical sources that exist; then again, there may not be.
                > >
                > > I do seem to recall reading about darker nagabakama for younger women, but I can't remember the source. Will try to dig it out this weekend if I can.
                > >
                > > Saionji no Hana
                > > West Kingdom
                > >
                >
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