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wodefordhall

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  • Kelsey Troutman
    Hello to the wonderful list! If the author of Wodefordhall is on the list or anyone can put me in contact with the individual I would greatly appreciate it. I
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 20, 2011
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      Hello to the wonderful list!

      If the author of Wodefordhall is on the list or anyone can put me in contact with the individual I would greatly appreciate it. I am curious about one of the photo's in the link http://www.wodefordhall.com/display.htm Specifically the on at the very top right of the page. I notice that the green layer is... well.. kind of see through. I've seen this in one other persons garb, but in white. Where/how do we know that they used a see through type layer in Japanese garb? Any ideas?

      Thanks so very much!

      Kelsey

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JL Badgley
      On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 5:59 AM, Kelsey Troutman ... That page belongs to Saionji no Hana, a wonderful lady of much skill and talented research. I hope she
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 20, 2011
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        On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 5:59 AM, Kelsey Troutman
        <cammobikerchick@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello to the wonderful list!
        >
        > If the author of Wodefordhall is on the list or anyone can put me in contact with the individual I would greatly appreciate it. I am curious about one of the photo's in the link http://www.wodefordhall.com/display.htm Specifically the on at the very top right of the page. I notice that the green layer is... well.. kind of see through. I've seen this in one other persons garb, but in white. Where/how do we know that they used a see through type layer in Japanese garb? Any ideas?
        >
        That page belongs to Saionji no Hana, a wonderful lady of much skill
        and talented research. I hope she does not mind my intruding on this
        answer.

        We definitely know that they used only slightly opaque silk for many
        things--this is depicted in paintings both in Japan and on the
        mainland, in China. You can usually tell it is semi-translucent
        because you can see things drawn underneath. I've read that some
        ladies, during summer, in the women's quarters, at least, would strip
        down to a single layer on top--I would guess as an informal outfit for
        lounging about. Most of the scholarly reconstructions I've seen of
        "hitoe" (which basically means "single layer") all call for similarly
        translucent material. There are also the extant garments that we have
        that generally give us an idea of what types of fabric were like from
        that period--mostly stuff that was preserved in temples or with the
        dead (such as some of the clothing of the Fujiwara of Hiraizumi,
        iirc).

        -Ii
      • LJonthebay
        ... For future reference, my email address is available at the bottom of the home page. ;-D I don t bite and rumors of deployment of the legendary Smackity Fan
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 20, 2011
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          > On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 5:59 AM, Kelsey Troutman
          > > If the author of Wodefordhall is on the list or anyone can put me in contact with the individual I would greatly appreciate it.

          For future reference, my email address is available at the bottom of the home page. ;-D I don't bite and rumors of deployment of the legendary Smackity Fan are greatly exaggerated.

          > >I am curious about one of the photo's in the link http://www.wodefordhall.com/display.htm Specifically the on at the very top right of the page. I notice that the green layer is... well.. kind of see through.

          That's silk habotai. I think it was around 8 or 10 momme, but that was bought years ago, so I can't guarantee my memory is correct. It wasn't see through when I bought it. It wasn't see-through when I dyed it that shade of green. I re-dyed it a darker green and used it for the hitoe on my formal set, shown at http://www.wodefordhall.com/karaginumo.htm and it's clearly not-see-through there. (It does have an unfortunate tendency to slide out from under where it belongs like lettuce on a sandwich with too much mayo!)


          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
          > That page belongs to Saionji no Hana, a wonderful lady of much skill
          > and talented research. I hope she does not mind my intruding on > this answer.
          Not at all, tomodachi. I quite literally just got in the house from Estrella War and am downloading photos (none of which are for Estrella, of course).
          >
          > We definitely know that they used only slightly opaque silk for many
          > things--this is depicted in paintings both in Japan and on the
          > mainland, in China. You can usually tell it is semi-translucent
          > because you can see things drawn underneath. I've read that some
          > ladies, during summer, in the women's quarters, at least, would strip
          > down to a single layer on top--I would guess as an informal outfit for
          > lounging about. Most of the scholarly reconstructions I've seen of
          > "hitoe" (which basically means "single layer") all call for similarly
          > translucent material. There are also the extant garments that we have
          > that generally give us an idea of what types of fabric were like from
          > that period--mostly stuff that was preserved in temples or with the
          > dead (such as some of the clothing of the Fujiwara of Hiraizumi,
          > iirc).

          That pretty much jives with what my dust-ridden brain is capable at remembering at the moment. I know Dalby's chapter on Heian kasane in "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" describes ensembles in which the sleeves would be lined in a different color than the outer part so the under color showed through. That would require the outer layer to be somewhat transparent.

          Do a search on "sha" and "ro" silk if you're interested in seeing weaves you can read newsprint through. They're glorious.

          Saionji no Hana
          West Kingdom
        • Audrey Bergeron-Morin
          ... The way I saw them done in Japan, even at the costume museum (the one with the dolls), is that the lining was displaced slightly so about 2 or 3 mm would
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 20, 2011
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            >
            > That pretty much jives with what my dust-ridden brain is capable at
            > remembering at the moment. I know Dalby's chapter on Heian kasane in
            > "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" describes ensembles in which the sleeves would
            > be lined in a different color than the outer part so the under color showed
            > through. That would require the outer layer to be somewhat transparent.
            >

            The way I saw them done in Japan, even at the costume museum (the one with
            the dolls), is that the lining was displaced slightly so about 2 or 3 mm
            would "stick out" from the inside. Kind of like we keep modern linings on
            the inside of vests; but in reverse so there would be a thin strip of
            contrasting colour showing at the edges.

            For example, yellow lined with green here at the costume museum in Kyoto
            https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/uki3aNXhYTYnIfoGeqqTGTAbhfrEhxwuVX0xdNiYDzo?feat=directlink

            I saw this done on life-size costumes too.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kelsey Troutman
            Thank you everyone! I really do appreciate the valuable information! I never realized that they would use a transparent fabric. I can t claim to have a boat
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 21, 2011
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              Thank you everyone! I really do appreciate the valuable information! I never realized that they would use a transparent fabric. I can't claim to have a boat load of knowledge about Japanese garb (yet) but I hope some day to be able to skillfully create garments as beautiful as all the pictures i've seen of everyone else's work!

              Thanks again,
              Kelsey






              >
              > That pretty much jives with what my dust-ridden brain is capable at
              > remembering at the moment. I know Dalby's chapter on Heian kasane in
              > "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" describes ensembles in which the sleeves would
              > be lined in a different color than the outer part so the under color showed
              > through. That would require the outer layer to be somewhat transparent.
              >

              The way I saw them done in Japan, even at the costume museum (the one with
              the dolls), is that the lining was displaced slightly so about 2 or 3 mm
              would "stick out" from the inside. Kind of like we keep modern linings on
              the inside of vests; but in reverse so there would be a thin strip of
              contrasting colour showing at the edges.

              For example, yellow lined with green here at the costume museum in Kyoto
              https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/uki3aNXhYTYnIfoGeqqTGTAbhfrEhxwuVX0xdNiYDzo?feat=directlink

              I saw this done on life-size costumes too.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • LJonthebay
              ... May I recommend Japanese Costume and Textile Arts by Seiroku Noma. It s a realy nice little book from an art series put out in the 1970s and I think it s
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 21, 2011
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelsey Troutman <cammobikerchick@...> wrote:

                > Thank you everyone! I really do appreciate the valuable information! I never realized that they would use a transparent fabric. I can't claim to have a boat load of knowledge about Japanese garb (yet) but I hope some day to be able to skillfully create garments as beautiful as all the pictures i've seen of everyone else's work!

                May I recommend "Japanese Costume and Textile Arts" by Seiroku Noma. It's a realy nice little book from an art series put out in the 1970s and I think it's an excellent introduction to period Japanese textiles. Alibris has several available very cheaply.
                http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?author=noma&title=japanese+costume+and+textile+arts

                "Kosode: 16th-19th Century Textiles from the Nomura Collection" by Amanda Meyer Stinchecum is also out of print, but the appendices at the back on common weaves, dyestuffs and other subjects are extremely useful. Alibris has one at $22 and there's a used copy on Amazon right now for about $25.
                http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=kosode+stinchecum&hs.x=0&hs.y=0&hs=Submit

                http://www.amazon.com/Kosode-Sixteenth-Nineteenth-Textiles-Collection/dp/0317657356/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1298320423&sr=1-2

                Cheers,
                Saionji no Hana,
                West Kingdom
              • Andrew T Trembley
                ... The Kyoto costume museum examples of daimon hitatare (well, the purple/maroonish one at least) are a slightly loose weave hemp that s also somewhat
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 24, 2011
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                  On 2/20/2011 6:16 PM, LJonthebay wrote:
                  > That pretty much jives with what my dust-ridden brain is capable at
                  > remembering at the moment. I know Dalby's chapter on Heian kasane in
                  > "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" describes ensembles in which the sleeves
                  > would be lined in a different color than the outer part so the under
                  > color showed through. That would require the outer layer to be
                  > somewhat transparent.
                  > Do a search on "sha" and "ro" silk if you're interested in seeing weaves you can read newsprint through. They're glorious.

                  The Kyoto costume museum examples of daimon hitatare (well, the
                  purple/maroonish one at least) are a slightly loose weave hemp that's
                  also somewhat translucent. And, of course, starched eboshi are often
                  made with a translucent black gauze.

                  (no, my hemp/linen that's waiting to be made into daimon hitatare is
                  opaque.)

                  andy
                • LJonthebay
                  ... How many birthdays has that hemp had, Andy-dono? I do hope you get around to making hitatare one of these days. ;-D Saionji no Hana West Kingdom
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 25, 2011
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                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@...> wrote:

                    > (no, my hemp/linen that's waiting to be made into daimon hitatare is
                    > opaque.)

                    How many birthdays has that hemp had, Andy-dono? I do hope you get around to making hitatare one of these days. ;-D

                    Saionji no Hana
                    West Kingdom
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