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Re: [SCA-JML] Chests

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... 70 liters sounds unreasonably large to me. That is what 4272 cubic inches which measures something like 16-1/4 inches
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 16, 2010
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      > I'm hoping to find something I might be able to make in the range of
      > 70~ liter storage capacity, as I am assuming wood and that means
      > weight and so one like 2x the size would need like a forklift to get
      > in and out of the transport, out of plastics easy to make and lift,
      > wood not so much. I'm looking for a something to store and transport
      > my camp supplies in.

      70 liters sounds unreasonably large to me. That is what 4272 cubic
      inches which measures something like 16-1/4 inches to the side. OK
      Maybe it isn't so unreasonably large. Further, it sounds like
      something which could comfortably be made out of wood without
      requiring a fork lift to pick up. Wood need not be impossibly heavy in
      order to make a serviceable box. I will see if I can find that image
      of people with wooden back packs climbing a mountain which I posted a
      link to a few years back. Anyway. Even 140 L sounds doable to me at
      this point.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Here is an image of people wearing tabidansu (travel chests) http://demoivre.org/Japan/tabidansu.jpg I was also going to
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 16, 2010
        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig! Here is an image of people wearing tabidansu
        (travel chests)

        http://demoivre.org/Japan/tabidansu.jpg

        I was also going to mention karabitsu, but those have already been
        mentioned. The cords are used to tie down the lid.

        Here is a link to a site by Ishiyama dono where he describes making a
        karabitsu.

        http://www.ee0r.com/proj/karabitsu.html

        If you search for karabitsu on the web you will turn up a number of
        images for the things.

        Now then. Karabitsu means "Chinese chest" while tabidansu means
        "travel chest". Both designs appear to be period.

        Regardless the relevant Japanese terms are 旅箪笥 tabidansu and 唐
        櫃 karabitsu. If the kanji survive your email program, try searching
        for them at google.co.jp and be sure to click on 画像 which is the
        search button for images. Searching for tabidansu will overwhelm you
        with tea ceremony images as the things are used in the tea ceremony.
        However, I do not know another term for them.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Elaine Koogler
        To be honest, I m not sure how far back they go, but I do know that at least during some periods in Japan, the tansu was used. Typically, it was made of
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 17, 2010
          To be honest, I'm not sure how far back they go, but I do know that at
          least during some periods in Japan, the tansu was used. Typically, it
          was made of paulownia or elm with iron fittings. They varied in size
          but were usually large enough to carry one's possessions when
          traveling. They could be stacked on on top of another to provide more
          storage space. When traveling, poles were run through the handles that
          existed on each end of the tansu. The one reference I found online with
          a date says that these were used during the Edo period, but I have to
          believe that something similar must have been used earlier.

          Kiri

          On 10/16/2010 11:23 PM, the.lady.phoenix@... wrote:
          >
          > Hi all,
          >
          > I am looking for examples of chests used in Japan pre Edo, however the
          > only examples I have found have been small laquered chest unsuited to
          > travel and camp life.
          >
          > If anyone has had better luck, I would hope they would share their
          > findings, perhaps as an A&S report, shared to the list.
          >
          > Sara
          >
          >

          --
          "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
          is invisible to the eye."
          --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • James Eckman
          You can find small chunks of paulwonia masquerading as cutting boards in dollar stores sometimes. You can buy boards online and yes it is extremely light. Your
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 17, 2010
            You can find small chunks of paulwonia masquerading as cutting boards
            in dollar stores sometimes. You can buy boards online and yes it is
            extremely light. Your tools will have to be very sharp to cut it without
            crushing it.

            Don't bother with it for cutting boards though, about the silliest
            application for it that I can think of!

            Jim
          • Elaine Koogler
            Or find a sympathetic friend who lives in Virginia or Maryland. Paulownia trees grow wild here, and this area is where the Japanese are getting much of what
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 17, 2010
              Or find a sympathetic friend who lives in Virginia or Maryland.
              Paulownia trees grow wild here, and this area is where the Japanese are
              getting much of what they use today. There was some kind of blight on
              the trees in Japan, so they have to import what they use. It sometimes
              gets so bad that scavengers will actually steal trees from people's
              yards. I have a couple in my yard that I planted...one blew over in a
              storm and I was able to sell the wood very quickly! No...to answer your
              question...I don't have any that look to come down anytime soon. If so,
              I'll let the list know.

              Kiri (guess where my name came from??? However the English name for the
              tree is actually a 19th c. Russian word. Amazing what you discover when
              you're trying to register an heraldic title!)

              On 10/17/2010 10:58 AM, James Eckman wrote:
              >
              > You can find small chunks of paulwonia masquerading as cutting boards
              > in dollar stores sometimes. You can buy boards online and yes it is
              > extremely light. Your tools will have to be very sharp to cut it without
              > crushing it.
              >
              > Don't bother with it for cutting boards though, about the silliest
              > application for it that I can think of!
              >
              > Jim
              >
              >

              --
              "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
              is invisible to the eye."
              --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dean Wayland
              Greetings Kiri-dono, et all, ... My group here in the UK, did a lot of research in to these items some years ago in an attempt to solve our in-camp storage and
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 18, 2010
                Greetings Kiri-dono, et all,

                >To be honest, I'm not sure how far back they go, but I do know that at
                >least during some periods in Japan, the tansu was used. Typically, it
                >was made of paulownia or elm with iron fittings. They varied in size
                >but were usually large enough to carry one's possessions when
                >traveling. They could be stacked on on top of another to provide more
                >storage space. When traveling, poles were run through the handles that
                >existed on each end of the tansu. The one reference I found online with
                >a date says that these were used during the Edo period, but I have to
                >believe that something similar must have been used earlier.
                >
                >Kiri

                My group here in the UK, did a lot of research in to these items some
                years ago in an attempt to solve our in-camp storage and transport
                needs. I now have eight, which are used for everything from carrying
                jinmaku (camp curtains), through armour, bedding, clothes and all those
                little things that make life in 16th century Japan so pleasant,
                including my nice new hibachi, Yay, heating!:-)

                The term "tansu" is today used by dealers as a catch all term for chest
                like furniture, but this is because most survivors are of Edo period
                make. The pre-Edo version is called "hitsu", hence the term
                "yoroi-bitsu" for one form of armour chest.

                Our typical hitsu measures 21.5" tall (of that 5" is the lid), by 17.5"
                long, by 16" wide, and are made of 1/4" thick wood, normally pine, but
                also paulownia, elm (zelkova) and cypress. We have a few that were made
                out of 1/2" wood so they could be sat on or stood on, but they are heavy
                to carry, and so all our new ones are thinner. We do have larger ones,
                but again they end up too heavy when loaded, to be comfortable. Most are
                painted to seal them from the weather, but some are plain wood. The
                joints are simple comb joints in most cases. We're going to be building
                some nagamochi, long chests, for carrying lightweight but bulky items
                like futons.

                The narrow end can be fitted with either metal or rope handles for
                portage purposes, using a rectangular pole and a couple of peasants -
                which are never around when you want them.

                We had a black smith turn out several dozen handle sets for us, and they
                work superbly. Now loading and unloading is a dream, we wouldn't be
                without them, and they really make the campsite look excellent.

                Anyway I highly recommend the following book, which although it
                concentrates on the Edo period has a wealth of information on kit from
                as early as the Heian era, right through to Meiji and Taisho. At the
                back is a stunningly useful visual history of different types of kit.
                For example, lighting, bedding and cooking gear.

                http://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Japanese-Furniture-Kazuko-Koizumi/dp/08
                7011722X#_


                Anyway, I hope this helps.

                Yours

                Dean

                (SHOGUN: 1543-1640)
                http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk/SHOGUN.htm
              • Jeanel Walker
                kon ni chi wa I have an idea for you for storage if your interested and you can enjoy some play time too. I made this hollow so i can stash my mundain stuff
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 18, 2010
                  kon ni chi wa

                  I have an idea for you for storage if your interested and you can enjoy some play time too. I made this hollow so i can stash my mundain stuff in...just a thought and its not hard to make
                  http://iolii.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d20v69t

                  http://iolii.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d20wl2i

                  http://iolii.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d20vvzh

                  http://iolii.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d20vv7u

                  May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                  Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takaatsu" of Kisimull
                  http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                  http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg


                  --- On Mon, 10/18/10, Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:

                  From: Dean Wayland <dean@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Chests
                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, October 18, 2010, 10:22 AM







                   









                  Greetings Kiri-dono, et all,



                  >To be honest, I'm not sure how far back they go, but I do know that at

                  >least during some periods in Japan, the tansu was used. Typically, it

                  >was made of paulownia or elm with iron fittings. They varied in size

                  >but were usually large enough to carry one's possessions when

                  >traveling. They could be stacked on on top of another to provide more

                  >storage space. When traveling, poles were run through the handles that

                  >existed on each end of the tansu. The one reference I found online with

                  >a date says that these were used during the Edo period, but I have to

                  >believe that something similar must have been used earlier.

                  >

                  >Kiri



                  My group here in the UK, did a lot of research in to these items some

                  years ago in an attempt to solve our in-camp storage and transport

                  needs. I now have eight, which are used for everything from carrying

                  jinmaku (camp curtains), through armour, bedding, clothes and all those

                  little things that make life in 16th century Japan so pleasant,

                  including my nice new hibachi, Yay, heating!:-)



                  The term "tansu" is today used by dealers as a catch all term for chest

                  like furniture, but this is because most survivors are of Edo period

                  make. The pre-Edo version is called "hitsu", hence the term

                  "yoroi-bitsu" for one form of armour chest.



                  Our typical hitsu measures 21.5" tall (of that 5" is the lid), by 17.5"

                  long, by 16" wide, and are made of 1/4" thick wood, normally pine, but

                  also paulownia, elm (zelkova) and cypress. We have a few that were made

                  out of 1/2" wood so they could be sat on or stood on, but they are heavy

                  to carry, and so all our new ones are thinner. We do have larger ones,

                  but again they end up too heavy when loaded, to be comfortable. Most are

                  painted to seal them from the weather, but some are plain wood. The

                  joints are simple comb joints in most cases. We're going to be building

                  some nagamochi, long chests, for carrying lightweight but bulky items

                  like futons.



                  The narrow end can be fitted with either metal or rope handles for

                  portage purposes, using a rectangular pole and a couple of peasants -

                  which are never around when you want them.



                  We had a black smith turn out several dozen handle sets for us, and they

                  work superbly. Now loading and unloading is a dream, we wouldn't be

                  without them, and they really make the campsite look excellent.



                  Anyway I highly recommend the following book, which although it

                  concentrates on the Edo period has a wealth of information on kit from

                  as early as the Heian era, right through to Meiji and Taisho. At the

                  back is a stunningly useful visual history of different types of kit.

                  For example, lighting, bedding and cooking gear.



                  http://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Japanese-Furniture-Kazuko-Koizumi/dp/08

                  7011722X#_



                  Anyway, I hope this helps.



                  Yours



                  Dean



                  (SHOGUN: 1543-1640)

                  http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk/SHOGUN.htm

























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James Eckman
                  Posted by: Dean Wayland ... Yes that is an awesome book, there s another one much like it that when I can remember the name I will send it along. If I get
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 18, 2010
                    Posted by: "Dean Wayland"

                    > Traditional Japanese Furniture Kazuko Koizumi

                    Yes that is an awesome book, there's another one much like it that when
                    I can remember the name I will send it along. If I get some free time, I
                    do plan a tansu for my art supplies!

                    Jim
                  • James Eckman
                    *Not the one I was talking about but... Traditional Japanese chests : a definitive guide / Kazuko Koizumi Jim * [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 18, 2010
                      *Not the one I was talking about but...
                      Traditional Japanese chests : a definitive guide / Kazuko Koizumi

                      Jim


                      *


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dean Wayland
                      Hi Jim, ... Ooh, new, published in April. Thanks for that, I am now 23 pounds the poorer, but richer by virtue of having ordered a new book for my library.
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 19, 2010
                        Hi Jim,

                        >*Not the one I was talking about but...
                        >Traditional Japanese chests : a definitive guide / Kazuko Koizumi
                        >
                        >Jim

                        Ooh, new, published in April. Thanks for that, I am now 23 pounds the
                        poorer, but richer by virtue of having ordered a new book for my
                        library. I'll let you know what I think of it once it arrives.

                        All the best

                        Dean

                        --
                        Dean Wayland
                        Head Of The Fight School
                        http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
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