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Re: [SCA-JML] Female name help

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  • Ben Overmyer
    First question: can you read Japanese? Yours in service, Sagara Tsuyoshi ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 16, 2010
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      First question: can you read Japanese?

      Yours in service,
      Sagara Tsuyoshi

      On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Jeremy <jjmallory@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Greeting noble cousins! As I am sure everyone here know finding a source
      > for a pre-edo female name is difficult. I am training a new female fighter
      > in my local group. She wants to have a japanese persona like mine. I am
      > having trouble with the documentation part of submitting a name for her. She
      > has been going by Yoshihide Kikuyo no Katano. She love the Kiku part because
      > the chrysathimum is her favorite flower. Just looking for some help if at
      > all possible. Btw going with Muromachi period. Somewhere around 1500.
      >
      > thanks in advance
      > Hideyoshi Yoshimitsu
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • LJonthebay
      ... I ll defer to the name mavens, but I happen to have the book in reach so I ll take a crack at it. Someone correct me if I get it wrong.... Women s names
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 16, 2010
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy" <jjmallory@...> wrote:

        > I am having trouble with the documentation part of submitting a name for her. She has been going by Yoshihide Kikuyo no Katano. She love the Kiku part because the chrysathimum is her favorite flower. Just looking for some help if at all possible. Btw going with Muromachi period. Somewhere around 1500.

        I'll defer to the name mavens, but I happen to have the book in reach so I'll take a crack at it. Someone correct me if I get it wrong....

        Women's names are Surname + Given Name. The "no" is used with certain types of surnames (I just did battle with the College of Heralds over whether I could use it with the one I chose), but had fallen out of use by the Muromachi period.

        "Kiku" appears on p. 164 of "Name Construction in Medieval Japan" as a feminine name from the Muromachi period. (Also listed are Kikumatsu and Kikume from the Kamakura period).

        "Yoshihide" is listed as a nanori or man's given name, not a surname. It also appears in Solveig-sensei's article on men's names at the St. Gabriel website:
        http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/solveig/nanori/

        I find no listing for "Katano." Wikipedia lists a city in Osaka, but it was founded in the 20th century. I don't know if there was a place name "Katano" during our period.

        Anybody? Bueller-dono?

        Saionji no Hana
        West Kingdom
      • the.lady.phoenix@gmail.com
        What I did for someone in SIngapore was I found out What Singapore was named in period. How about the same here? Just find out what Kanto was named back
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 16, 2010
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          What I did for someone in SIngapore was I found out What Singapore was
          named in period. How about the same here? Just find out what Kanto
          was named back then, like Tokyo was called Edo in period. I could be
          the city is 20th Century, but there were a smattering of Towns in the
          area, sort of like Roma was founding by combining 7 villages on 7
          hills that were close to each other, now Roma is so old those Villages
          (if they existed, after all this example is a legend) names have been
          lost to us, however for this example under 200 years old, I'm sure
          that there has to be some record somewhere.

          Sara

          On 16/10/2010, LJonthebay <wodeford@...> wrote:
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy" <jjmallory@...> wrote:
          >
          >> I am having trouble with the documentation part of submitting a name for
          >> her. She has been going by Yoshihide Kikuyo no Katano. She love the Kiku
          >> part because the chrysathimum is her favorite flower. Just looking for
          >> some help if at all possible. Btw going with Muromachi period. Somewhere
          >> around 1500.
          >
          > I'll defer to the name mavens, but I happen to have the book in reach so
          > I'll take a crack at it. Someone correct me if I get it wrong....
          >
          > Women's names are Surname + Given Name. The "no" is used with certain types
          > of surnames (I just did battle with the College of Heralds over whether I
          > could use it with the one I chose), but had fallen out of use by the
          > Muromachi period.
          >
          > "Kiku" appears on p. 164 of "Name Construction in Medieval Japan" as a
          > feminine name from the Muromachi period. (Also listed are Kikumatsu and
          > Kikume from the Kamakura period).
          >
          > "Yoshihide" is listed as a nanori or man's given name, not a surname. It
          > also appears in Solveig-sensei's article on men's names at the St. Gabriel
          > website:
          > http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/solveig/nanori/
          >
          > I find no listing for "Katano." Wikipedia lists a city in Osaka, but it was
          > founded in the 20th century. I don't know if there was a place name "Katano"
          > during our period.
          >
          > Anybody? Bueller-dono?
          >
          > Saionji no Hana
          > West Kingdom
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... 1. The Muromachi period is rather late for extroverted women, but this is the SCA after all. So, pretty much nobody
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 16, 2010
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > Greeting noble cousins! As I am sure everyone here know finding a
            > source for a pre-edo female name is difficult. I am training a new
            > female fighter in my local group. She wants to have a japanese
            > persona like mine. I am having trouble with the documentation part
            > of submitting a name for her. She has been going by Yoshihide
            > Kikuyo no Katano. She love the Kiku part because the chrysathimum
            > is her favorite flower. Just looking for some help if at all
            > possible. Btw going with Muromachi period. Somewhere around 1500.


            1. The Muromachi period is rather late for extroverted women, but this
            is the SCA after all. So, pretty much nobody will say boo. For that
            matter, Tsunoda only devotes 26 pages to the Muromachi period between
            the Kamakura period and the Momoya period. By way of contrast, the
            discussion of the Muromachi starts around page 200.
            2. You pretty much are not going to be including possessive -no- in
            the Muromachi period. Regardless, the -no- particle is not correctly
            used in the proposed name. About all I can find in Tsunoda for a
            pattern during the Muromachi period would be the use of -no- to make a
            compound family name.
            3. As already noted, Yoshihide is a masculine nanori and would not
            appear in your friend's name.
            4. Does Katano have any particular significance fo you folks? I
            suggest writing it 片野 and documenting it as a constructed toponymic
            family name.
            5. Proper order is <family name><given name>
            6. I'm fairly certain that the -yo suffix is too recent for the
            Muromachi period. About all that can be found is Senchiyo 千千代 and
            Chiyo 千代 which you can see are formed using a number so -yo does
            not appear to be a free form during the Muromachi period. During the
            early Muromachi, we are still seeing women with names ending in -me 女
            High born women rather commonly still had names ending in -ko 子.
            During the late Muromachi we find names without a suffix.

            So we have something like: Katano Kikuko 片野菊子, Katano Kikume 片
            野菊女, or Katano Kiku 片野菊 or something like that.

            Ref. Tsunoda Bun'ei. Nihon no Joseimei (2006). ISBN: 4-336-04745-6

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I just thought that I would mention that Tsunoda does note the use of -no- with uji names during the Muromachi period.
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 16, 2010
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              Noble Cousins!

              Greetings from Solveig! I just thought that I would mention that
              Tsunoda does note the use of -no- with uji names during the Muromachi
              period.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • Jeremy
              I wish I could. I have been learning some of the spoken language over the last few years, kanji Is a bit beyond me at this point.
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 17, 2010
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                I wish I could. I have been learning some of the spoken language over the last few years, kanji Is a bit beyond me at this point.

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ben Overmyer <manatrance@...> wrote:
                >
                > First question: can you read Japanese?
                >
                > Yours in service,
                > Sagara Tsuyoshi
                >
                > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Jeremy <jjmallory@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Greeting noble cousins! As I am sure everyone here know finding a source
                > > for a pre-edo female name is difficult. I am training a new female fighter
                > > in my local group. She wants to have a japanese persona like mine. I am
                > > having trouble with the documentation part of submitting a name for her. She
                > > has been going by Yoshihide Kikuyo no Katano. She love the Kiku part because
                > > the chrysathimum is her favorite flower. Just looking for some help if at
                > > all possible. Btw going with Muromachi period. Somewhere around 1500.
                > >
                > > thanks in advance
                > > Hideyoshi Yoshimitsu
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Jeremy
                Thank you all for the assistance. I think I am on the right track now. After deliberation with my student, we have descided to go with Yoshida Kiku. I have
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 17, 2010
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                  Thank you all for the assistance. I think I am on the right track now. After deliberation with my student, we have descided to go with Yoshida Kiku. I have already gotten the documentation for both. Again thank you so very much.
                  Yours in service
                  Hideyoshi Yoshimitsu

                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy" <jjmallory@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Greeting noble cousins! As I am sure everyone here know finding a source for a pre-edo female name is difficult. I am training a new female fighter in my local group. She wants to have a japanese persona like mine. I am having trouble with the documentation part of submitting a name for her. She has been going by Yoshihide Kikuyo no Katano. She love the Kiku part because the chrysathimum is her favorite flower. Just looking for some help if at all possible. Btw going with Muromachi period. Somewhere around 1500.
                  >
                  > thanks in advance
                  > Hideyoshi Yoshimitsu
                  >
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