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Re: Coronet Question

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  • LJonthebay
    ... Omedetou gozaimasu! ... I m thinking not. At the elevation of the current Emperor, Akihito, he wore a kanmuri (hat) and the Empress wore a hirabitai:
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, John Lyon <toramassa@...> wrote:
      >
      > My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness.

      Omedetou gozaimasu!

      > I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in
      > finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist at all?

      I'm thinking not. At the elevation of the current Emperor, Akihito, he wore a kanmuri (hat) and the Empress wore a hirabitai: http://wodefordhall.com/emperor.jpg

      http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/14.htm shows the hirabitai on an Edo period interpretation of formal court dress.

      Stumped,
      Saionji no Hanae
      West Kingdon
    • Susan Moury
      Congratulations! Though I ve been entitled to a circlet, I ve never availed myself of it and I m in no rush to do so.  But these questions get asked by
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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        Congratulations!

        Though I've been entitled to a circlet, I've never availed myself of it and I'm
        in no rush to do so.  But these questions get asked by friends so, I ponder how
        to demonstrate SCAdian rank on Japanese headgear from time to time. 


        I was thinking of ways of sneaking it in, in such a way that to those in the
        know, it would appear subtle and not a disrepectful error in dress.  To those
        not in the know, they might still absorb the signal of rank even though subtle
        or disguised.


        For myself I was considering, once I have built up my wardrobe to include
        a proper court hat, to embroider on the edge a thin silver band.  At the rate
        I'm going this may be 2015 and I may change my mind on the whim to demonstrate
        rank.

        For your case, what about the addition of black pearls to the court hat?  From a
        distance they won't jar those who know better, and up close the correct signal
        might be sent?

        Just a thought.  Again, I'm not in any hurry to demonstrate my own humble rank. 
        But for appearance in court, maybe an appropriate signal to our non-Japanese
        persona colleagues without jarring Japanese persona sensibilities?

        Yours in service,

        Mori Matsunomae   

         



        ________________________________
        From: LJonthebay <wodeford@...>
        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 6:57:02 PM
        Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Coronet Question

         
        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, John Lyon <toramassa@...> wrote:
        >
        > My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness.

        Omedetou gozaimasu!

        > I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in
        > finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist at all?

        I'm thinking not. At the elevation of the current Emperor, Akihito, he wore a
        kanmuri (hat) and the Empress wore a hirabitai:
        http://wodefordhall.com/emperor.jpg

        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/14.htm shows the hirabitai on an
        Edo period interpretation of formal court dress.

        Stumped,
        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdon




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JL Badgley
        ... Her excellency and I have had a similar problem out in the Far West. Basically--there really isn t an equivalent to the coronet per se. You can always use
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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          On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:57 PM, John Lyon <toramassa@...> wrote:
          > My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness. The Crown not
          > knowing exactly what would be appropriate for a Japanese Persona decided to
          > gift us instead with 6 pearls and allow us to find coronets that suit our
          > personas. I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in
          > finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist at all?
          > Are they limited to ruling class? Would it be more appropriate for me to
          > represent my rank through garb than a metal hat? I would very much welcome
          > some direction, key words to search, stern words, or other advice relating
          > to this.
          >
          Her excellency and I have had a similar problem out in the Far West.
          Basically--there really isn't an equivalent to the coronet per se.

          You can always use Hiraizumi-gimi's chart and take an appropriate
          title--and I have a list of court positions and job titles if you are
          looking for something like that. Then, when you figure out what rank
          you are, you can wear court garments appropriate to your rank.

          Here is something I've been doing:
          http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs303.ash2/58348_1379799178763_1345421701_30889950_5478720_n.jpg

          Putting the coronet around the tate-eboshi makes the overall effect
          more subtle--it isn't period, but it works for the SCA. The
          tate-eboshi with hitatare kamishimo, btw, is classic example of late
          period kuge/daimyo (think: Imagawa), and is often used to indicate
          status as a member of the kuge vice a mere bushi.

          -Ii
        • Jeanel Walker
          hello, i do have some information to help but im sorry i cant find the my resource at the moment. for women the level of there tite is shown with the jewels in
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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            hello, i do have some information to help but im sorry i cant find the my resource at the moment.
            for women the level of there tite is shown with the jewels in her hair. a peasant would use straw and a worker class would wear wood like carved wood or bamboo and a lady would wear silver with animals or flowers inset and royalty would wear gold.
            if you look as see there
             http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.costumemuseum.jp/french/collection/j_komono/jk645.html&ei=B1eITLe9FI2hnAf30qi9Cw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CBoQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DHirabitai%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D21D%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Ds%26prmd%3Div
            the page will translate.



            Epoque indéterminée Period ended

            Le "kokoroba" est une décoration en forme de rameaux d'or sur lesquels sont attachées des fleurs de pruniers. The "kokoroba" is a form of decoration in gold on which branches are attached plum blossoms. Elle est fixée au "hirabitai" (élément essentiel de la coiffe "kamiageru") pour former le "kokoroba-tsuki-hirabitai". It is set to "hirabitai" (an essential element of the cap "kamiageru") to form the "kokoroba-tsuki-hirabitai.
            Cet ensemble est complété par des décorations pendantes faites de longs cordons appelés "hikage-no-ito". This set is complemented by hanging decorations made from long strings called "Hikage-no-ito".
            I hope this will help.
            as for the men I am unsure but beleive the same aplies as far as the silver and gold but Im thinking its something like chinese were you have a hanging adorment that is carved and its like your id. Ive seen old moves that use them as carved jade and prestious stone that is worn on a string hanging from the belt. the emperor had one too but his was made of gold and much larger. again im not sure but its a place to start looking.

            good luck

            May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
            Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takaatsu" of Kisimull
            http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
            http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg


            --- On Wed, 9/8/10, LJonthebay <wodeford@...> wrote:

            From: LJonthebay <wodeford@...>
            Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Coronet Question
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 5:57 PM







             









            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, John Lyon <toramassa@...> wrote:

            >

            > My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness.



            Omedetou gozaimasu!



            > I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in

            > finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist at all?



            I'm thinking not. At the elevation of the current Emperor, Akihito, he wore a kanmuri (hat) and the Empress wore a hirabitai: http://wodefordhall.com/emperor.jpg



            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/14.htm shows the hirabitai on an Edo period interpretation of formal court dress.



            Stumped,

            Saionji no Hanae

            West Kingdon

























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Elaine Koogler
            To be honest, that s pretty much what Phillip and I did when we were landed B&B. I felt that we had a duty to represent our people...and that included wearing
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
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              To be honest, that's pretty much what Phillip and I did when we were
              landed B&B. I felt that we had a duty to represent our people...and
              that included wearing the Dun Carraig Baronial coronets...so we wore
              them, adapting them to whatever garb we were wearing, even though it
              wasn't appropriate to Japanese garb.

              When we were not landed, I rarely wore/wear a coronet with Japanese
              garb. At one point, we had an idea of making combs for me to wear in my
              hair that had six pearls, three on each one. I figured that it might be
              a little more compatible with my garb.

              Kiri

              On 9/8/2010 7:49 PM, JL Badgley wrote:
              >
              > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:57 PM, John Lyon <toramassa@...
              > <mailto:toramassa%40gmail.com>> wrote:
              > > My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness. The
              > Crown not
              > > knowing exactly what would be appropriate for a Japanese Persona
              > decided to
              > > gift us instead with 6 pearls and allow us to find coronets that
              > suit our
              > > personas. I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in
              > > finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist
              > at all?
              > > Are they limited to ruling class? Would it be more appropriate for me to
              > > represent my rank through garb than a metal hat? I would very much
              > welcome
              > > some direction, key words to search, stern words, or other advice
              > relating
              > > to this.
              > >
              > Her excellency and I have had a similar problem out in the Far West.
              > Basically--there really isn't an equivalent to the coronet per se.
              >
              > You can always use Hiraizumi-gimi's chart and take an appropriate
              > title--and I have a list of court positions and job titles if you are
              > looking for something like that. Then, when you figure out what rank
              > you are, you can wear court garments appropriate to your rank.
              >
              > Here is something I've been doing:
              > http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs303.ash2/58348_1379799178763_1345421701_30889950_5478720_n.jpg
              >
              > Putting the coronet around the tate-eboshi makes the overall effect
              > more subtle--it isn't period, but it works for the SCA. The
              > tate-eboshi with hitatare kamishimo, btw, is classic example of late
              > period kuge/daimyo (think: Imagawa), and is often used to indicate
              > status as a member of the kuge vice a mere bushi.
              >
              > -Ii
              >
              >

              --
              "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
              is invisible to the eye."
              --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jeanel Walker
              At one point, we had an idea of making combs for me to wear in my hair that had six pearls, three on each one. I figured that it might be a little more
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
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                "At one point, we had an idea of making combs for me to wear in my

                hair that had six pearls, three on each one. I figured that it might be

                a little more compatible with my garb."

                wow thats a lovely idea...if you do please post a pic I would love to see it.



                May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takaatsu" of Kisimull
                http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg

















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Lyon
                I also have been toying with the idea of having a 14th Century English styled coronet. My thinking here being, that the Royalty who handed out the award are
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
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                  I also have been toying with the idea of having a 14th Century English
                  styled coronet. My thinking here being, that the Royalty who handed out the
                  award are 14th century, and if as a Japanese persona I am assumed to be a
                  visitor in a european court, then the title and symbols of that title would
                  match the locals, and not to my own time and period necessarily.

                  On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Jeanel Walker <brytephyre@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > "At one point, we had an idea of making combs for me to wear in my
                  >
                  > hair that had six pearls, three on each one. I figured that it might be
                  >
                  > a little more compatible with my garb."
                  >
                  > wow thats a lovely idea...if you do please post a pic I would love to see
                  > it.
                  >
                  > May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                  > Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takaatsu" of Kisimull
                  > http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                  > http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
                  thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
                  things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I
                  take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
                  -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5

                  John Lyon
                  aka The Ugly Dragon
                  aka Kita Jiru Toramassa


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Of course you could do something similar to what Nobunaga did with his cardinal s hat. But, I suppose that folks just
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
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                    Noble Cousins!

                    Greetings from Solveig! Of course you could do something similar to
                    what Nobunaga did with his cardinal's hat. But, I suppose that folks
                    just would not understand. Although the notion might be appreciated by
                    folks who have suffered through wearing heavy coronets.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar
                  • Jennifer Kobayashi
                    ... Solveig-dono - Please enlighten the uninformed. What did he do with his cardinal s hat? -Ki no Izumi
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
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                      >Greetings from Solveig! Of course you could do something similar to
                      >what Nobunaga did with his cardinal's hat.

                      Solveig-dono -

                      Please enlighten the uninformed. What did he do with his cardinal's hat?

                      -Ki no Izumi
                    • Elaine Koogler
                      That has pretty much been my interpretation so far as well...I had the same quandry when I was given an augmentation to my arms (mon) of two golden dragons.
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
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                        That has pretty much been my interpretation so far as well...I had the
                        same quandry when I was given an augmentation to my arms (mon) of two
                        golden dragons. Mons were being registered at the time only in black
                        and white. I submitted my device change with the golden dragons as
                        awarded. Laurel wanted to know if I didn't want to change them to
                        white/silver to go with the rest of my mon. I said that I didn't...I am
                        a visitor in a European Court, a "barbarian round-eye" king who didn't
                        know any better had given me this honor and it would be dishonorable of
                        me to change his gift! Laurel agreed...with a grin!

                        Kiri

                        On 9/9/2010 10:15 AM, John Lyon wrote:
                        > I also have been toying with the idea of having a 14th Century English
                        > styled coronet. My thinking here being, that the Royalty who handed out the
                        > award are 14th century, and if as a Japanese persona I am assumed to be a
                        > visitor in a european court, then the title and symbols of that title would
                        > match the locals, and not to my own time and period necessarily.
                        >
                        > On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Jeanel Walker<brytephyre@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >>
                        >> "At one point, we had an idea of making combs for me to wear in my
                        >>
                        >> hair that had six pearls, three on each one. I figured that it might be
                        >>
                        >> a little more compatible with my garb."
                        >>
                        >> wow thats a lovely idea...if you do please post a pic I would love to see
                        >> it.
                        >>
                        >> May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                        >> Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takaatsu" of Kisimull
                        >> http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                        >> http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
                        is invisible to the eye."
                        --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • LJonthebay
                        ... He put it on a pole and used it as a standard. Saionji no Hanae West Kingdom
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
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                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Kobayashi <jhkob@...> wrote:
                          > Please enlighten the uninformed. What did he do with his cardinal's hat?

                          He put it on a pole and used it as a standard.

                          Saionji no Hanae
                          West Kingdom
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