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Coronet Question

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  • John Lyon
    My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness. The Crown not knowing exactly what would be appropriate for a Japanese Persona decided to gift us
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
      My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness. The Crown not
      knowing exactly what would be appropriate for a Japanese Persona decided to
      gift us instead with 6 pearls and allow us to find coronets that suit our
      personas. I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in
      finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist at all?
      Are they limited to ruling class? Would it be more appropriate for me to
      represent my rank through garb than a metal hat? I would very much welcome
      some direction, key words to search, stern words, or other advice relating
      to this.

      Thank you in advance.

      --
      "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
      thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
      things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I
      take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
      -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5

      John Lyon
      aka The Ugly Dragon
      aka Kita Jiru Toramassa


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • LJonthebay
      ... Omedetou gozaimasu! ... I m thinking not. At the elevation of the current Emperor, Akihito, he wore a kanmuri (hat) and the Empress wore a hirabitai:
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, John Lyon <toramassa@...> wrote:
        >
        > My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness.

        Omedetou gozaimasu!

        > I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in
        > finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist at all?

        I'm thinking not. At the elevation of the current Emperor, Akihito, he wore a kanmuri (hat) and the Empress wore a hirabitai: http://wodefordhall.com/emperor.jpg

        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/14.htm shows the hirabitai on an Edo period interpretation of formal court dress.

        Stumped,
        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdon
      • Susan Moury
        Congratulations! Though I ve been entitled to a circlet, I ve never availed myself of it and I m in no rush to do so.  But these questions get asked by
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
          Congratulations!

          Though I've been entitled to a circlet, I've never availed myself of it and I'm
          in no rush to do so.  But these questions get asked by friends so, I ponder how
          to demonstrate SCAdian rank on Japanese headgear from time to time. 


          I was thinking of ways of sneaking it in, in such a way that to those in the
          know, it would appear subtle and not a disrepectful error in dress.  To those
          not in the know, they might still absorb the signal of rank even though subtle
          or disguised.


          For myself I was considering, once I have built up my wardrobe to include
          a proper court hat, to embroider on the edge a thin silver band.  At the rate
          I'm going this may be 2015 and I may change my mind on the whim to demonstrate
          rank.

          For your case, what about the addition of black pearls to the court hat?  From a
          distance they won't jar those who know better, and up close the correct signal
          might be sent?

          Just a thought.  Again, I'm not in any hurry to demonstrate my own humble rank. 
          But for appearance in court, maybe an appropriate signal to our non-Japanese
          persona colleagues without jarring Japanese persona sensibilities?

          Yours in service,

          Mori Matsunomae   

           



          ________________________________
          From: LJonthebay <wodeford@...>
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 6:57:02 PM
          Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Coronet Question

           
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, John Lyon <toramassa@...> wrote:
          >
          > My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness.

          Omedetou gozaimasu!

          > I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in
          > finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist at all?

          I'm thinking not. At the elevation of the current Emperor, Akihito, he wore a
          kanmuri (hat) and the Empress wore a hirabitai:
          http://wodefordhall.com/emperor.jpg

          http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/14.htm shows the hirabitai on an
          Edo period interpretation of formal court dress.

          Stumped,
          Saionji no Hanae
          West Kingdon




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • JL Badgley
          ... Her excellency and I have had a similar problem out in the Far West. Basically--there really isn t an equivalent to the coronet per se. You can always use
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
            On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:57 PM, John Lyon <toramassa@...> wrote:
            > My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness. The Crown not
            > knowing exactly what would be appropriate for a Japanese Persona decided to
            > gift us instead with 6 pearls and allow us to find coronets that suit our
            > personas. I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in
            > finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist at all?
            > Are they limited to ruling class? Would it be more appropriate for me to
            > represent my rank through garb than a metal hat? I would very much welcome
            > some direction, key words to search, stern words, or other advice relating
            > to this.
            >
            Her excellency and I have had a similar problem out in the Far West.
            Basically--there really isn't an equivalent to the coronet per se.

            You can always use Hiraizumi-gimi's chart and take an appropriate
            title--and I have a list of court positions and job titles if you are
            looking for something like that. Then, when you figure out what rank
            you are, you can wear court garments appropriate to your rank.

            Here is something I've been doing:
            http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs303.ash2/58348_1379799178763_1345421701_30889950_5478720_n.jpg

            Putting the coronet around the tate-eboshi makes the overall effect
            more subtle--it isn't period, but it works for the SCA. The
            tate-eboshi with hitatare kamishimo, btw, is classic example of late
            period kuge/daimyo (think: Imagawa), and is often used to indicate
            status as a member of the kuge vice a mere bushi.

            -Ii
          • Jeanel Walker
            hello, i do have some information to help but im sorry i cant find the my resource at the moment. for women the level of there tite is shown with the jewels in
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
              hello, i do have some information to help but im sorry i cant find the my resource at the moment.
              for women the level of there tite is shown with the jewels in her hair. a peasant would use straw and a worker class would wear wood like carved wood or bamboo and a lady would wear silver with animals or flowers inset and royalty would wear gold.
              if you look as see there
               http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.costumemuseum.jp/french/collection/j_komono/jk645.html&ei=B1eITLe9FI2hnAf30qi9Cw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CBoQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DHirabitai%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D21D%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Ds%26prmd%3Div
              the page will translate.



              Epoque indéterminée Period ended

              Le "kokoroba" est une décoration en forme de rameaux d'or sur lesquels sont attachées des fleurs de pruniers. The "kokoroba" is a form of decoration in gold on which branches are attached plum blossoms. Elle est fixée au "hirabitai" (élément essentiel de la coiffe "kamiageru") pour former le "kokoroba-tsuki-hirabitai". It is set to "hirabitai" (an essential element of the cap "kamiageru") to form the "kokoroba-tsuki-hirabitai.
              Cet ensemble est complété par des décorations pendantes faites de longs cordons appelés "hikage-no-ito". This set is complemented by hanging decorations made from long strings called "Hikage-no-ito".
              I hope this will help.
              as for the men I am unsure but beleive the same aplies as far as the silver and gold but Im thinking its something like chinese were you have a hanging adorment that is carved and its like your id. Ive seen old moves that use them as carved jade and prestious stone that is worn on a string hanging from the belt. the emperor had one too but his was made of gold and much larger. again im not sure but its a place to start looking.

              good luck

              May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
              Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takaatsu" of Kisimull
              http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
              http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg


              --- On Wed, 9/8/10, LJonthebay <wodeford@...> wrote:

              From: LJonthebay <wodeford@...>
              Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Coronet Question
              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 5:57 PM







               









              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, John Lyon <toramassa@...> wrote:

              >

              > My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness.



              Omedetou gozaimasu!



              > I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in

              > finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist at all?



              I'm thinking not. At the elevation of the current Emperor, Akihito, he wore a kanmuri (hat) and the Empress wore a hirabitai: http://wodefordhall.com/emperor.jpg



              http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/14.htm shows the hirabitai on an Edo period interpretation of formal court dress.



              Stumped,

              Saionji no Hanae

              West Kingdon

























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Elaine Koogler
              To be honest, that s pretty much what Phillip and I did when we were landed B&B. I felt that we had a duty to represent our people...and that included wearing
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
                To be honest, that's pretty much what Phillip and I did when we were
                landed B&B. I felt that we had a duty to represent our people...and
                that included wearing the Dun Carraig Baronial coronets...so we wore
                them, adapting them to whatever garb we were wearing, even though it
                wasn't appropriate to Japanese garb.

                When we were not landed, I rarely wore/wear a coronet with Japanese
                garb. At one point, we had an idea of making combs for me to wear in my
                hair that had six pearls, three on each one. I figured that it might be
                a little more compatible with my garb.

                Kiri

                On 9/8/2010 7:49 PM, JL Badgley wrote:
                >
                > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:57 PM, John Lyon <toramassa@...
                > <mailto:toramassa%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                > > My Lady and I were recently elevated to Court Baron/Baroness. The
                > Crown not
                > > knowing exactly what would be appropriate for a Japanese Persona
                > decided to
                > > gift us instead with 6 pearls and allow us to find coronets that
                > suit our
                > > personas. I have been looking and have not been terribly successful in
                > > finding any information on Japanese coronets. Do such things exist
                > at all?
                > > Are they limited to ruling class? Would it be more appropriate for me to
                > > represent my rank through garb than a metal hat? I would very much
                > welcome
                > > some direction, key words to search, stern words, or other advice
                > relating
                > > to this.
                > >
                > Her excellency and I have had a similar problem out in the Far West.
                > Basically--there really isn't an equivalent to the coronet per se.
                >
                > You can always use Hiraizumi-gimi's chart and take an appropriate
                > title--and I have a list of court positions and job titles if you are
                > looking for something like that. Then, when you figure out what rank
                > you are, you can wear court garments appropriate to your rank.
                >
                > Here is something I've been doing:
                > http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs303.ash2/58348_1379799178763_1345421701_30889950_5478720_n.jpg
                >
                > Putting the coronet around the tate-eboshi makes the overall effect
                > more subtle--it isn't period, but it works for the SCA. The
                > tate-eboshi with hitatare kamishimo, btw, is classic example of late
                > period kuge/daimyo (think: Imagawa), and is often used to indicate
                > status as a member of the kuge vice a mere bushi.
                >
                > -Ii
                >
                >

                --
                "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
                is invisible to the eye."
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jeanel Walker
                At one point, we had an idea of making combs for me to wear in my hair that had six pearls, three on each one. I figured that it might be a little more
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
                  "At one point, we had an idea of making combs for me to wear in my

                  hair that had six pearls, three on each one. I figured that it might be

                  a little more compatible with my garb."

                  wow thats a lovely idea...if you do please post a pic I would love to see it.



                  May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                  Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takaatsu" of Kisimull
                  http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                  http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg

















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Lyon
                  I also have been toying with the idea of having a 14th Century English styled coronet. My thinking here being, that the Royalty who handed out the award are
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
                    I also have been toying with the idea of having a 14th Century English
                    styled coronet. My thinking here being, that the Royalty who handed out the
                    award are 14th century, and if as a Japanese persona I am assumed to be a
                    visitor in a european court, then the title and symbols of that title would
                    match the locals, and not to my own time and period necessarily.

                    On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Jeanel Walker <brytephyre@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > "At one point, we had an idea of making combs for me to wear in my
                    >
                    > hair that had six pearls, three on each one. I figured that it might be
                    >
                    > a little more compatible with my garb."
                    >
                    > wow thats a lovely idea...if you do please post a pic I would love to see
                    > it.
                    >
                    > May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                    > Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takaatsu" of Kisimull
                    > http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                    > http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    --
                    "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
                    thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
                    things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I
                    take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
                    -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5

                    John Lyon
                    aka The Ugly Dragon
                    aka Kita Jiru Toramassa


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Of course you could do something similar to what Nobunaga did with his cardinal s hat. But, I suppose that folks just
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
                      Noble Cousins!

                      Greetings from Solveig! Of course you could do something similar to
                      what Nobunaga did with his cardinal's hat. But, I suppose that folks
                      just would not understand. Although the notion might be appreciated by
                      folks who have suffered through wearing heavy coronets.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar
                    • Jennifer Kobayashi
                      ... Solveig-dono - Please enlighten the uninformed. What did he do with his cardinal s hat? -Ki no Izumi
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
                        >Greetings from Solveig! Of course you could do something similar to
                        >what Nobunaga did with his cardinal's hat.

                        Solveig-dono -

                        Please enlighten the uninformed. What did he do with his cardinal's hat?

                        -Ki no Izumi
                      • Elaine Koogler
                        That has pretty much been my interpretation so far as well...I had the same quandry when I was given an augmentation to my arms (mon) of two golden dragons.
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
                          That has pretty much been my interpretation so far as well...I had the
                          same quandry when I was given an augmentation to my arms (mon) of two
                          golden dragons. Mons were being registered at the time only in black
                          and white. I submitted my device change with the golden dragons as
                          awarded. Laurel wanted to know if I didn't want to change them to
                          white/silver to go with the rest of my mon. I said that I didn't...I am
                          a visitor in a European Court, a "barbarian round-eye" king who didn't
                          know any better had given me this honor and it would be dishonorable of
                          me to change his gift! Laurel agreed...with a grin!

                          Kiri

                          On 9/9/2010 10:15 AM, John Lyon wrote:
                          > I also have been toying with the idea of having a 14th Century English
                          > styled coronet. My thinking here being, that the Royalty who handed out the
                          > award are 14th century, and if as a Japanese persona I am assumed to be a
                          > visitor in a european court, then the title and symbols of that title would
                          > match the locals, and not to my own time and period necessarily.
                          >
                          > On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Jeanel Walker<brytephyre@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >>
                          >> "At one point, we had an idea of making combs for me to wear in my
                          >>
                          >> hair that had six pearls, three on each one. I figured that it might be
                          >>
                          >> a little more compatible with my garb."
                          >>
                          >> wow thats a lovely idea...if you do please post a pic I would love to see
                          >> it.
                          >>
                          >> May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                          >> Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takaatsu" of Kisimull
                          >> http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                          >> http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >

                          --
                          "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
                          is invisible to the eye."
                          --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • LJonthebay
                          ... He put it on a pole and used it as a standard. Saionji no Hanae West Kingdom
                          Message 12 of 12 , Sep 9, 2010
                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Kobayashi <jhkob@...> wrote:
                            > Please enlighten the uninformed. What did he do with his cardinal's hat?

                            He put it on a pole and used it as a standard.

                            Saionji no Hanae
                            West Kingdom
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