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RE: [SCA-JML] Persona Help

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  • Kelsey Schware
    Before I start answering questions and asking more - Thank you to everyone for your help, it is most appreciated! I am going to attempt to pull all the various
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 26 9:21 AM
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      Before I start answering questions and asking more - Thank you to everyone for your help, it is most appreciated!
      I am going to attempt to pull all the various replies into one email response, forgive me if this is confusing.





      >Kelsey-dono, welcome!

      Noob question, what's the DONO part mean or for?

      >On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 3:29 AM, samuraipanda218
      ><cammobikerchick@...> wrote:
      >> Hello List!
      >>
      >> I have been watching and reading your posts from the sidelines for quite some time and finally have worked up the courage to be a noob and ask a dumb question. I'm still fairly new to the SCA and do not have a persona, let alone garb. I was hoping to do some research on names for women.
      >>
      >> I have used Sengoku daimyo for some initial searching on the subject. I have also spent some time looking through the biblio Saionji has so graciously compiled.
      >>
      >> I'm still stuck. I guess I don't even know where to begin. Does anybody have a good place to start? Maybe questions I should be asking, since i'm still almost totally new? Any help would be appreciated!
      >>

      >You already have some good advice. I recommend finding a family name
      >that you would like--the rest can easily be fiddled with from there
      >(and since families were around for long periods of time, you give
      >yourself a lot of fudge room on where and when, exactly, you are
      >looking at).

      There has been a suggestion of focus on a time period. I don't know much about this particular outfit http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000020 and the translation from babblefish is pretty sad. I think it's Nara. I thought that this clothing was really interesting, but I also noticed when searching the net for Nara history - it is sometimes very vague. I couldn't really follow what or who would have worn this particular clothing. Heian and Kamakura are both very nice as well for clothing, and have a very rich history. I am likely stuck between which era would be best for me. *gah* there is just too much cool stuff - picking one is tough!

      Another thought on picking names, I would prefer to stay away from baptismal given names if possible when picking a name.

      Next question, what's the difference between a personal name and a surname? I think Solveig mentioned this in a reply.


      >The first things we need to know to help is: How much do you know
      >about Japanese history, already, and besides names, what else are you
      >interested in?

      I know I've taken two college courses, on modern and premodern asia that dealt with Japan (and China, India, & Korea). I also took a 100's level Japanese course at college - so I know some about Japan and it's history, but not nearly as much as the rest of the list. I really do want to learn though- Japan has been a long time facination for me! Perhaps I should include that I would like to fight heavy list - would that play into creating the persona? I am also interested in the Japanese language itself. I'm sure I'll develop more interests along the way, but really I would be interested in anything Japanese at this point. (not too broad huh, hehe)

      >Search through the archives on Yahoo!, as well as looking at the
      >various notes, files, etc. There is a page of links that may be
      >helpful.

      I am going to continue my search through the archives and files on Yahoo, but sometimes finding a good starting place or knowing what to look for can be part of the challenge!

      >http://tousando.proboards.com is another good place to check out as
      >well--again, do a search through the various topics for items of
      >interest.

      >There is so much to talk about that I'm not sure where to start, but
      >you are doing the right thing. I'll give it some more thought and try
      >to come up with a better response later this evening.

      >-Ii

      Have I confused everyone yet???

      Again, thank you everyone for your help, I appreciate it very very much!
      Kelsey




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    • LJonthebay
      ... It s a polite form of address. http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/address.html has additional details, but -dono is a good gender neutral, period
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 26 10:44 AM
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelsey Schware <cammobikerchick@...> wrote:

        > Noob question, what's the DONO part mean or for?

        It's a polite form of address.
        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/address.html has additional details, but "-dono" is a good gender neutral, period honorific you can use when addressing someone.

        > There has been a suggestion of focus on a time period. I don't know much about this particular outfit http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000020 and the translation from babblefish is pretty sad. I think it's Nara. I thought that this clothing was really interesting, but I also noticed when searching the net for Nara history - it is sometimes very vague.

        Nara is early-ish. There's a lot of cross-cultural pollination from China at this time, so if things look somewhat Chinese, that's why.

        > Next question, what's the difference between a personal name and a surname?

        Smith is a surname, Mary is a personal name. Japanese names run last-name first. My Japanese surname is Saionji (they were a branch of the Fujiwara family who were involved with the Imperial court during the 13th century) and my personal name is Hanae (assuming the heralds don't muck with it and/or I didn't misconstrue the construction of the name elements when I hit on it).

        > Perhaps I should include that I would like to fight heavy list - would that play into creating the persona?

        It can, but it does not have to. Some women did fight, evidently. Tomoe Gozen is the one most often cited.

        Take your time: it's a big buffet table. ;-D

        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdom
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Generally speaking, the Nara period through the early Kamakura period is more fun for women as women lived
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 26 4:42 PM
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          Noble Cousins!

          Greetings from Solveig! Generally speaking, the Nara period through
          the early Kamakura period is more "fun" for women as women lived
          independently, possessed and controlled estates, and stuff like that.
          It's also the general time frame in which we encounter figures like
          Tomoe Gozen.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
        • ErinK
          I looked at that outfit. My Japanese isn t up to it either, but from the Google translation it seems like that might be an outfit for a festival singer. Some
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 27 9:14 AM
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            I looked at that outfit. My Japanese isn't up to it either, but from the
            Google translation it seems like that might be an outfit for a festival
            singer. Some of the odd accessories might be explained as traditional
            for whatever region or festival it's associated with. By "odd
            accessories" I'm thinking the hat, long under-sleeves, and white shawl
            wrap thing - just because I don't remember seeing those in other
            outfits.

            The rest of the outfit seems pretty normal - the green kosode and
            undivided hakama (just a skirt!). The green lettering on the tab at the
            top does say Nara period.

            As an aside, machine translation seems to have a lot of trouble with
            niche vocabulary. I use a browser plug-in called Rikaichan to look up
            individual characters and sometimes the Japanese makes more sense than
            the English. For example, Rikaichan tells me that å·¾ can be
            pronounced "kin" which is an ending I've seen on zukin (wimple), another
            cloth wrap. (Also, one of the translations is "napkin"). And 領 is
            the character for the word "eri," which is the neckband of a kosode. So
            number two in the diagram probably translates to "neck cloth" at some
            level.

            ERIN

            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelsey Schware <cammobikerchick@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > There has been a suggestion of focus on a time period. I don't know
            much about this particular outfit
            http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000020 and the
            translation from babblefish is pretty sad. I think it's Nara. I thought
            that this clothing was really interesting, but I also noticed when
            searching the net for Nara history - it is sometimes very vague. I
            couldn't really follow what or who would have worn this particular
            clothing. Heian and Kamakura are both very nice as well for clothing,
            and have a very rich history. I am likely stuck between which era would
            be best for me. *gah* there is just too much cool stuff - picking one is
            tough!
            >
          • Franzi Dickson
            ... My Japanese isn t the most fantastic, but here s my attempt: Title: 頂巾・比礼をつけた歌垣の女 Female reveler* in head cloth ( choukin ) and
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 27 11:46 AM
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              -----Original Message-----
              >From: Kelsey Schware <cammobikerchick@...>
              >Sent: Aug 26, 2010 12:21 PM
              >There has been a suggestion of focus on a time period. I don't know much about this particular outfit http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000020 and the translation from babblefish is pretty sad. I think it's Nara.

              My Japanese isn't the most fantastic, but here's my attempt:

              Title: "頂巾・比礼をつけた歌垣の女"
              Female reveler* in head cloth ("choukin") and shawl ("hire")

              * Literally an utagaki woman.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utagaki

              "古代日本の農村聚落の人々が、野辺や海浜に集まり、夜を徹して歌舞をたのしみ、歌のかけ合い等により男女が結ばれる場となった、又歌(かがい)とも云われた。"
              Peasants in ancient Japan would gather in the fields or on the shore to sing and dance the night away, exchanging poems as a type of courtship; this was also called "kagai".*
              * The same kagai mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tsukuba#Ancient_Extravaganza

              "歌垣は本来神を迎え、神を楽しませる祭事であり、米の豊饒を祈り、或いは収穫をことほぐ呪術的な行事として性の解放があったとも思われるがやがて又貴族の享楽の風流の遊びにも転じて行くこととなる。"
              Utagaki honored native gods: It is thought to have been a festival to entertain the gods or prayers for a fertile rice crop or possibly to have served a magical function in celebrating a successful harvest. However, before long, it shifted to being an elegant form of amusement for the aristocracy as well.

              "ここでは頂巾、纈文筒袖の上衣に裙をつけ、ひれを持った奈良時代の姿とした。"
              Here we have a Nara Period style with head cloth*1, resist-dyed*2 tight-sleeved jacket*3 with skirt*4, and shawl*5.

              *1 choukin
              *2 koukechi or kouketsu: http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/k/koukechi.htm
              *3 It's an 'uwagi', which can mean jacket/outer garment/etc., with "tsutsu-sode".
              *4 A 'mo' (spelled with a different kanji from what I usually see, and shaped differently from the Heian version)
              *5 Hire--translated as 'veil' some places, but in this period, it appears to have meant a type of decorative scarf/shawl

              And now the numbered notes from the drawing (the notes above are mine):

              "1  頂巾(ちょうきん)
              2  領巾(ひれ)[比礼]
              3  襖(あお)[上衣(うわぎ)]
              4  内衣(ないい)
              5  裙(も)
              6  帯(おび) "

              1. Choukin
              2. Hire [2 spellings given]
              3. Ao [jacket]
              4. Inner robe ("nai-i")
              5. Mo
              6. Obi

              ***

              The problem with machine translation (aside from the fact that it's always terrible anyway) is the fact that standard dictionaries usually only list some modern meaning of these various kanji and don't even include the clothing jargon definitions you'll be looking for.

              Jaanus is sometimes helpful, but it's more geared towards architectural terms: http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/

              WWWJDIC is also pretty good, but it's missing a lot of specialist terminology. (Though one can always submit words...) http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C

              Unfortunately, there are a lot of clothing terms that you really have to search for definitions for in Japanese, especially if someone's spelled them in an unusual way.

              --Franzi
            • Kelsey Schware
              Interseting thought, i m pulling this from the other thread going on right now. This website http://www.fashion-kyoto.or.jp/orikyo/maturi/index07.html has an
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 27 12:23 PM
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                Interseting thought, i'm pulling this from the other thread going on right now. This website http://www.fashion-kyoto.or.jp/orikyo/maturi/index07.html has an interesting, similar appearance, minus said odd hat. Wonder if there is a correlation between the two?

                Thanks for taking a look Erin!
                Kelsey



                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                From: tupan4@...
                Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:14:10 +0000
                Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Persona Help






                I looked at that outfit. My Japanese isn't up to it either, but from the
                Google translation it seems like that might be an outfit for a festival
                singer. Some of the odd accessories might be explained as traditional
                for whatever region or festival it's associated with. By "odd
                accessories" I'm thinking the hat, long under-sleeves, and white shawl
                wrap thing - just because I don't remember seeing those in other
                outfits.

                The rest of the outfit seems pretty normal - the green kosode and
                undivided hakama (just a skirt!). The green lettering on the tab at the
                top does say Nara period.

                As an aside, machine translation seems to have a lot of trouble with
                niche vocabulary. I use a browser plug-in called Rikaichan to look up
                individual characters and sometimes the Japanese makes more sense than
                the English. For example, Rikaichan tells me that ��� can be
                pronounced "kin" which is an ending I've seen on zukin (wimple), another
                cloth wrap. (Also, one of the translations is "napkin"). And � � is
                the character for the word "eri," which is the neckband of a kosode. So
                number two in the diagram probably translates to "neck cloth" at some
                level.

                ERIN

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelsey Schware <cammobikerchick@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > There has been a suggestion of focus on a time period. I don't know
                much about this particular outfit
                http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000020 and the
                translation from babblefish is pretty sad. I think it's Nara. I thought
                that this clothing was really interesting, but I also noticed when
                searching the net for Nara history - it is sometimes very vague. I
                couldn't really follow what or who would have worn this particular
                clothing. Heian and Kamakura are both very nice as well for clothing,
                and have a very rich history. I am likely stuck between which era would
                be best for me. *gah* there is just too much cool stuff - picking one is
                tough!
                >





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