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Re: [SCA-JML] Hajimemashite, mina-sama!

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  • William Giltner
    As far as I know the whole shaven pate thing was late & Edo, period. An then a standing Soldier (Ashigaru) or society minded.(Politically Active). YMMV William
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 4, 2010
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      As far as I know the whole shaven pate thing was late & Edo, period.
      An then a standing Soldier (Ashigaru) or society minded.(Politically Active).
      YMMV

      William S. Giltner

      Lrd Tatsuo Okami

      Iron River Armoury

      www.iron-river-armoury.com

      --- On Fri, 6/4/10, Douglas <dsunlin@...> wrote:

      From: Douglas <dsunlin@...>
      Subject: [SCA-JML] Hajimemashite, mina-sama!
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 3:30 PM







       









      Recently I got inspired to do a samurai impression, and do it right. It had something to do with watching the Seven Samurai for the umpteenth time, then seeing trashy Japanese impressions at a sci-fi convention.



      Normally I do Anglo-Saxon/Viking in a non-SCA group. I have played with the SCA in the past but I think i would stick to a non-fighter outfit, just to keep things simple.



      Of course, my favorite "samurai" is Toshiro Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in Seven Samurai. It hit me that I could actually do it. My build, etc., is roughly the same, aside from being a tall hakujin (Caucasian). I could grow out my hair a little longer and tie it up in a chonmage. His character didn't have the shaven pate normally seen, or it had maybe grown out.



      I could make a kimono like the one he wore - looks like a painted or stenciled pattern of arrows.



      The no-dachi/o-dachi could be made a mock sword, since it's usually not OK to draw it in most conventions, saving me money.



      The belt kit is interesting, I would certainly need to pick up a tanto and make two pair of sandals.



      Does anyone have any ideas regarding this?



      Douglas

























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Douglas
      Thank you very much! The Seven Samurai takes place in the Sengoku jidai (late 16th century). I don t know when the chon-mage was begun, but it s seen in
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 4, 2010
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        Thank you very much! The Seven Samurai takes place in the Sengoku jidai (late 16th century). I don't know when the chon-mage was begun, but it's seen in Japanese art as early as the Kamakura period.

        Kurosawa even has his peasants with this haircut. Since Kikuchiyo was a samurai (or wannabe) I am glad that I don't have to consider this. :)

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, William Giltner <iron_river_armoury@...> wrote:
        >
        > As far as I know the whole shaven pate thing was late & Edo, period.
        > An then a standing Soldier (Ashigaru) or society minded.(Politically Active).
        > YMMV
        >
        > William S. Giltner
        >
        > Lrd Tatsuo Okami
        >
        > Iron River Armoury
        >
        > www.iron-river-armoury.com
        >
        > --- On Fri, 6/4/10, Douglas <dsunlin@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: Douglas <dsunlin@...>
        > Subject: [SCA-JML] Hajimemashite, mina-sama!
        > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 3:30 PM
        >
        >
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        >  
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        > Recently I got inspired to do a samurai impression, and do it right. It had something to do with watching the Seven Samurai for the umpteenth time, then seeing trashy Japanese impressions at a sci-fi convention.
        >
        >
        >
        > Normally I do Anglo-Saxon/Viking in a non-SCA group. I have played with the SCA in the past but I think i would stick to a non-fighter outfit, just to keep things simple.
        >
        >
        >
        > Of course, my favorite "samurai" is Toshiro Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in Seven Samurai. It hit me that I could actually do it. My build, etc., is roughly the same, aside from being a tall hakujin (Caucasian). I could grow out my hair a little longer and tie it up in a chonmage. His character didn't have the shaven pate normally seen, or it had maybe grown out.
        >
        >
        >
        > I could make a kimono like the one he wore - looks like a painted or stenciled pattern of arrows.
        >
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        >
        > The no-dachi/o-dachi could be made a mock sword, since it's usually not OK to draw it in most conventions, saving me money.
        >
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        >
        > The belt kit is interesting, I would certainly need to pick up a tanto and make two pair of sandals.
        >
        >
        >
        > Does anyone have any ideas regarding this?
        >
        >
        >
        > Douglas
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        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      • wodeford
        ... I love Kurosawa, I love Shichi no Samurai and I love Mifune as Kikuchiyo. That said, Kiku-chan is a slob. ... It was probably printed or resist dyed that
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 4, 2010
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dsunlin@...> wrote:
          > Of course, my favorite "samurai" is Toshiro Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in Seven Samurai.

          I love Kurosawa, I love Shichi no Samurai and I love Mifune as Kikuchiyo. That said, Kiku-chan is a slob.

          > I could make a kimono like the one he wore - looks like a painted or stenciled pattern of arrows.

          It was probably printed or resist dyed that way. I'm blanking on the Japanese name for the arrow-fletch motif at the moment, but it is period-appropriate, particularly in the way it was used on that garment. That said, the effect could definitely be recreated using fabric paint. I've been faking Japanese-style textiles this way for years: http://www.wodefordhall.com/fakingit.htm may give you some ideas on how to go about it. Besides, my first painted garment had arrows on it.

          Two places you need to begin exploring:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/links
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files

          There's information there on clothing, how to make waraji (rice straw sandals), armor and weapons and so forth.


          Welcome,
          Saionji no Hanae
          West Kingdom
        • Douglas
          Honto-ni arigato gozaimasu! - Although Ki-kun would be ruder. ;) It looks as though someone has done some footwork for me:
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 4, 2010
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            Honto-ni arigato gozaimasu! - Although Ki-kun would be ruder. ;)

            It looks as though someone has done some footwork for me:
            http://ask.metafilter.com/57965/Kikuchiyos-Robe

            I will definitely raid your storehouse of knowledge, Wodeford-san.

            The pattern is "yafusuma" or something (it doesn't show up in my dictionary). It should be easy enough to cut printing blocks for it. I am thinking dark blue on light blue.

            Yes, he's a slob, see the drunken scene and how his kosode is soiled.

            By the way, is there a difference in cut between an old kosode and a modern yukata? I have a yukata that fits me in the same way it fits Mifune-san. I would probably have to make it in silk.

            Thanks again!

            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dsunlin@> wrote:
            > > Of course, my favorite "samurai" is Toshiro Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in Seven Samurai.
            >
            > I love Kurosawa, I love Shichi no Samurai and I love Mifune as Kikuchiyo. That said, Kiku-chan is a slob.
            >
            > > I could make a kimono like the one he wore - looks like a painted or stenciled pattern of arrows.
            >
            > It was probably printed or resist dyed that way. I'm blanking on the Japanese name for the arrow-fletch motif at the moment, but it is period-appropriate, particularly in the way it was used on that garment. That said, the effect could definitely be recreated using fabric paint. I've been faking Japanese-style textiles this way for years: http://www.wodefordhall.com/fakingit.htm may give you some ideas on how to go about it. Besides, my first painted garment had arrows on it.
            >
            > Two places you need to begin exploring:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/links
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files
            >
            > There's information there on clothing, how to make waraji (rice straw sandals), armor and weapons and so forth.
            >
            >
            > Welcome,
            > Saionji no Hanae
            > West Kingdom
            >
          • shiroyabane
            If it s the pattern I m thinking of, the arrow pattern is called yabane and later on became a popular motif for the komon kimono worn by Meiji-era
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 4, 2010
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              If it's the pattern I'm thinking of, the arrow pattern is called "yabane" and later on became a popular motif for the komon kimono worn by Meiji-era schoolgirls with their iconic hakama and Western riding boots. In modern times it's often associated with femininity, due the the ritual of girls shooting sacred arrows at shrines on Adults' Day (Seijin no Hi.)

              It's an awesome pattern- beautifully geometric and continuous.

              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dsunlin@...> wrote:
              >
              > Recently I got inspired to do a samurai impression, and do it right. It had something to do with watching the Seven Samurai for the umpteenth time, then seeing trashy Japanese impressions at a sci-fi convention.
              >
              > Normally I do Anglo-Saxon/Viking in a non-SCA group. I have played with the SCA in the past but I think i would stick to a non-fighter outfit, just to keep things simple.
              >
              > Of course, my favorite "samurai" is Toshiro Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in Seven Samurai. It hit me that I could actually do it. My build, etc., is roughly the same, aside from being a tall hakujin (Caucasian). I could grow out my hair a little longer and tie it up in a chonmage. His character didn't have the shaven pate normally seen, or it had maybe grown out.
              >
              > I could make a kimono like the one he wore - looks like a painted or stenciled pattern of arrows.
              >
              > The no-dachi/o-dachi could be made a mock sword, since it's usually not OK to draw it in most conventions, saving me money.
              >
              > The belt kit is interesting, I would certainly need to pick up a tanto and make two pair of sandals.
              >
              > Does anyone have any ideas regarding this?
              >
              > Douglas
              >
            • wodeford
              ... THAT S the one. I have a cheap tenugui from Daiso with a purple yabane pattern on the darn thing and my brain kept insisting the word I wanted was yanome,
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 4, 2010
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "shiroyabane" <whitefeatherart@...> wrote:
                >
                > If it's the pattern I'm thinking of, the arrow pattern is called "yabane" and later on became a popular motif for the komon kimono worn by Meiji-era schoolgirls with their iconic hakama and Western riding boots.

                THAT'S the one. I have a cheap tenugui from Daiso with a purple yabane pattern on the darn thing and my brain kept insisting the word I wanted was yanome, which is an arrowhead!

                They call it Fry-Day for a reason. ;-D

                Many thanks,
                Saionji no Hanae
              • wodeford
                ... Yes. They re cut a bit bigger and the sleeves have curved edges. http://www.wodefordhall.com/kosode.htm has details, including how to make one. Warning,
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 4, 2010
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dsunlin@...> wrote:
                  > By the way, is there a difference in cut between an old kosode and a modern yukata? I have a yukata that fits me in the same way it fits Mifune-san. I would probably have to make it in silk.

                  Yes. They're cut a bit bigger and the sleeves have curved edges.
                  http://www.wodefordhall.com/kosode.htm has details, including how to make one.

                  Warning, silk will eventually rot from contact with human perspiration. I usually recommend folks wear a cotton or linen layer (breathable and more laundry-friendly) under their silks, but Kiku-chan - well, we saw the fishing scene. The Japanese had hemp and ramie, two plant-based fibers, for which linen is a decent substitute, and even some cotton toward the end of this period. Depends on what you want to do and how much care you want to give to the resulting garment

                  Saionji no Hanae
                  West Kingdom
                • wodeford
                  ... I m not sure the ones here will be particularly helpful for replicating Kikuchiyo s look, but I stumbled upon a very nice collection of stills from
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 5, 2010
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                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dsunlin@...> wrote:
                    > Of course, my favorite "samurai" is Toshiro Mifune's character Kikuchiyo in Seven Samurai.

                    I'm not sure the ones here will be particularly helpful for replicating Kikuchiyo's look, but I stumbled upon a very nice collection of stills from Kurosawa films a few months ago and I don't remember if I ever put it up here:

                    http://www.kurosawamovies.com/gallery/main.php

                    Oooh, now THIS eye-bleeder from "Kagemusha" is amazing! LOVE IT!
                    http://www.kurosawamovies.com/gallery/d/2423-2/kagemusha58.jpg

                    Enjoy,
                    Saionji no Hanae
                    West Kingdom
                  • Audrey Bergeron-Morin
                    This is amazing! Thank you for sharing! ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 6, 2010
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                      This is amazing! Thank you for sharing!



                      On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:37 PM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

                      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dsunlin@...> wrote:
                      > > Of course, my favorite "samurai" is Toshiro Mifune's character Kikuchiyo
                      > in Seven Samurai.
                      >
                      > I'm not sure the ones here will be particularly helpful for replicating
                      > Kikuchiyo's look, but I stumbled upon a very nice collection of stills from
                      > Kurosawa films a few months ago and I don't remember if I ever put it up
                      > here:
                      >
                      > http://www.kurosawamovies.com/gallery/main.php
                      >
                      > Oooh, now THIS eye-bleeder from "Kagemusha" is amazing! LOVE IT!
                      > http://www.kurosawamovies.com/gallery/d/2423-2/kagemusha58.jpg
                      >
                      > Enjoy,
                      > Saionji no Hanae
                      > West Kingdom
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... In a word, YES there are differences between kosode, modern kimono, modern yukata, and modern nemaki. Your Humble
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 6, 2010
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > By the way, is there a difference in cut between an old kosode and
                        > a modern yukata? I have a yukata that fits me in the same way it
                        > fits Mifune-san. I would probably have to make it in silk.

                        In a word, YES there are differences between kosode, modern kimono,
                        modern yukata, and modern nemaki.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar
                      • Douglas
                        Thank you everyone, for you ideas and help! May we assume that Kurosawa s films are historically correct, generally speaking? -Douglas
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 7, 2010
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                          Thank you everyone, for you ideas and help!

                          May we assume that Kurosawa's films are historically correct, generally speaking?

                          -Douglas

                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Noble Cousin!
                          >
                          > Greetings from Solveig!
                          >
                          > > By the way, is there a difference in cut between an old kosode and
                          > > a modern yukata? I have a yukata that fits me in the same way it
                          > > fits Mifune-san. I would probably have to make it in silk.
                          >
                          > In a word, YES there are differences between kosode, modern kimono,
                          > modern yukata, and modern nemaki.
                          >
                          > Your Humble Servant
                          > Solveig Throndardottir
                          > Amateur Scholar
                          >
                        • wodeford
                          ... Movies are entertainment. They are not obliged to be historically accurate. Kurosawa s period pieces are fictional stories, inspired by everything from Noh
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 7, 2010
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <dsunlin@...> wrote:

                            > May we assume that Kurosawa's films are historically correct, generally speaking?

                            Movies are entertainment. They are not obliged to be historically accurate.

                            Kurosawa's period pieces are fictional stories, inspired by everything from Noh plays to Shakespeare to American Westerns.

                            Many of his films have spectacularly good costume design. In fact, I spotted a number of reproductions of museum-piece garments in "Kagemusha," which tells you how much of a geek I am.

                            Movies can be a stepping off point. However, if you want to research what people were wearing in a particular period, you need to look at surviving garments and art from the period showing what people are wearing.

                            Saionji no Hanae
                            West Kingdom
                          • James Eckman
                            Posted by: wodeford wodeford@yahoo.com wodeford ... The Japanese Taiga dramas are usually a bit better about this, but the above caution still applies. Since
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 8, 2010
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                              Posted by: "wodeford" wodeford@... wodeford
                              > Movies are entertainment. They are not obliged to be historically
                              > accurate.
                              The Japanese Taiga dramas are usually a bit better about this, but the
                              above caution still applies. Since they have several that cover a wide
                              range of periods, its good for a starter. I also saw on one the building
                              of the Daibutsu that was quite entertaining. I also study Chinese
                              painting, you could see the influence from the Tang court.

                              > Kurosawa's period pieces are fictional stories, inspired by everything from Noh plays to Shakespeare to American Westerns.
                              >
                              Or at least one mystery, knowing what a mystery lover Kurosawa was, I'm
                              fairly certain Yojimbo was inspired by Dashiell Hammet's Red Harvest.

                              Jim
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