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Re: [SCA-JML] Obi "rules"

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  • Ellen Badgley
    On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:23 PM, William Giltner
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 9 6:37 AM
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      On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:23 PM, William Giltner <
      iron_river_armoury@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > *Blush*
      > The obi thing comes from Rate of customer satisfaction (per/Hour)
      > *nosebleed*
      > A proper lady would have hers tied in the back (as Normal) a Street
      > courteasan would have hers tied in the front (easier and FASTER to get to).
      >
      > At least that is my understanding from listening to one lady take
      > pleasure in recounting how she had shown a lady (that she didnt like) to tie
      > it in the front.
      >
      > William S. Giltner
      >
      > Lrd Tatsuo Okami
      >

      I believe you were misled, or the lady was misinformed. At least she would
      appear to have shown her disliked rival a more appropriately period
      practice, which I doubt was intended!

      As Lord Ii said, most women's obis in SCA period appear to have been tied in
      front. It didn't indicate a thing about negotiable affection.

      For a far more complete analysis, including references to period art, see
      our own Saionji-hime's excellent article at her website:
      http://wodefordhall.com/editorials.htm

      - Abe Akirakeiko.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JL Badgley
      On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:23 PM, William Giltner ... Fortunately, the lady (if she should be called that) who was attempting to dupe another did not know what
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 9 6:37 AM
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        On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:23 PM, William Giltner
        <iron_river_armoury@...> wrote:
        > *Blush*
        >  The obi thing comes from Rate of customer satisfaction (per/Hour)
        > *nosebleed*
        >  A proper lady would have hers tied in the back (as Normal) a Street courteasan would have hers tied in the front (easier and FASTER to get to).
        >
        >   At least that is my understanding from listening to one lady take pleasure in recounting how she had shown a lady (that she didnt like) to tie it in the front.
        >

        Fortunately, the lady (if she should be called that) who was
        attempting to dupe another did not know what she was talking about.
        That may be an Edo period tradition, but it definitely isn't in our
        period of study:

        http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3986721182/in/set-72157622402471317/

        That's from "The Maple Viewers". These are all respectable people
        (men on one side, women on the other), and look at the obi on these
        women. I'm willing to bet they'd have words with anyone who called
        them prostitutes.

        There are many more such pictures we can dig up.

        -Ii
      • wodeford
        ... You beat me to it. Saionji no Whew
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 9 9:06 AM
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
          > For a far more complete analysis, including references to period art, see
          > our own Saionji-hime's excellent article at her website:
          > http://wodefordhall.com/editorials.htm

          You beat me to it.

          Saionji no Whew
        • heiannoyukiume
          Obi were tied at the front by all women until fairly recent time periods. Around the Edo period, courtesans (called oiran or tayuu) started tying the in the
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 10 10:17 PM
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            Obi were tied at the front by all women until fairly recent time periods. Around the Edo period, courtesans (called oiran or tayuu) started tying the in the front, while other women started tying theirs in the back.

            This was not, as commonly speculated, because it was easier to untie that way, but because tying obi in the front was the style of that time period for married women, and courtesans were in effect "wives for a night."

            Source: "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" by Liza Dalby, The Costume Museum of Kyoto Website, various references cited at Immortal Geisha Forums

            I believe that in the Heian through Sengoku periods, front-tied obi for women were almost (if not completely) universal. I can't think of any period sources indicating a back-tied obi; perhaps Saionji-hime might have some more references about this, though, as she's more the expert on period women's fashion? :?
          • ErinK
            Ah, so I would have known this if I d made more progress on my resolution to actually READ books instead of just buy them (and look at the pictures).
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 11 7:40 AM
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              Ah, so I would have known this if I'd made more progress on my resolution to actually READ books instead of just buy them (and look at the pictures).

              Saionji-sensei's article (link elsewhere in the thread) is very helpful too. I think I had actually read that before, and that's why I didn't remember it being an issue.

              Thanks, everyone!

              ERIN

              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "heiannoyukiume" <whitefeatherart@...> wrote:
              >
              > Obi were tied at the front by all women until fairly recent time periods. Around the Edo period, courtesans (called oiran or tayuu) started tying the in the front, while other women started tying theirs in the back.
              >
              > This was not, as commonly speculated, because it was easier to untie that way, but because tying obi in the front was the style of that time period for married women, and courtesans were in effect "wives for a night."
              >
              > Source: "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" by Liza Dalby, The Costume Museum of Kyoto Website, various references cited at Immortal Geisha Forums
              >
            • wodeford
              ... I don t recall having seen any iconographic evidence for back-tied obi prior to 1600, however, costume designer Emi Wada may know something I don t. She
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 11 8:44 AM
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "heiannoyukiume" <whitefeatherart@...> wrote:
                > I believe that in the Heian through Sengoku periods, front-tied obi for women were almost (if not completely) universal. I can't think of any period sources indicating a back-tied obi; perhaps Saionji-hime might have some more references about this, though, as she's more the expert on period women's fashion? :?

                I don't recall having seen any iconographic evidence for back-tied obi prior to 1600, however, costume designer Emi Wada may know something I don't. She put the female retainers in "Ran" in back-tied obi about 3" wide. This makes practical sense if one is performing tasks where dangling obi ties are going to get in one's way, but I don't know what historical evidence it's based on.

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjyAC2ENl5I is a production video from "Ran" that shows the outfits to which I am referring.

                Saionji no Hanae
                West Kingdom
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