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Re: [SCA-JML] Obi "rules"

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  • William Giltner
    *Blush*  The obi thing comes from Rate of customer satisfaction (per/Hour) *nosebleed*  A proper lady would have hers tied in the back (as Normal) a Street
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 9, 2010
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      *Blush*
       The obi thing comes from Rate of customer satisfaction (per/Hour)
      *nosebleed*
       A proper lady would have hers tied in the back (as Normal) a Street courteasan would have hers tied in the front (easier and FASTER to get to).

        At least that is my understanding from listening to one lady take pleasure in recounting how she had shown a lady (that she didnt like) to tie it in the front.

      William S. Giltner

      Lrd Tatsuo Okami

      Iron River Armoury

      www.iron-river-armoury.com

      --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Erin Kelly <tupan4@...> wrote:

      From: Erin Kelly <tupan4@...>
      Subject: [SCA-JML] Obi "rules"
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 8:17 AM







       









      I can never remember whether I'm supposed to tie my obi in the back or in

      the front. I've heard that during some time period only courtesans would

      tie their obi one of the two ways (but of course I can never remember

      which).



      When did that come about, and how do we know that anyway?



      Thanks!



      ERIN



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JL Badgley
      ... I haven t seen anything to conclude that there was anything like this in period. Most obi on women appear to be tied in front, though there are other ways
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 9, 2010
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        On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:17 PM, Erin Kelly <tupan4@...> wrote:
        > I can never remember whether I'm supposed to tie my obi in the back or in
        > the front.  I've heard that during some time period only courtesans would
        > tie their obi one of the two ways (but of course I can never remember
        > which).

        I haven't seen anything to conclude that there was anything like this in period.

        Most obi on women appear to be tied in front, though there are other
        ways to do it. Remember they are not/not the large obi you see
        elsewhere.

        -Ii
      • Ellen Badgley
        On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:23 PM, William Giltner
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 9, 2010
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          On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:23 PM, William Giltner <
          iron_river_armoury@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > *Blush*
          > The obi thing comes from Rate of customer satisfaction (per/Hour)
          > *nosebleed*
          > A proper lady would have hers tied in the back (as Normal) a Street
          > courteasan would have hers tied in the front (easier and FASTER to get to).
          >
          > At least that is my understanding from listening to one lady take
          > pleasure in recounting how she had shown a lady (that she didnt like) to tie
          > it in the front.
          >
          > William S. Giltner
          >
          > Lrd Tatsuo Okami
          >

          I believe you were misled, or the lady was misinformed. At least she would
          appear to have shown her disliked rival a more appropriately period
          practice, which I doubt was intended!

          As Lord Ii said, most women's obis in SCA period appear to have been tied in
          front. It didn't indicate a thing about negotiable affection.

          For a far more complete analysis, including references to period art, see
          our own Saionji-hime's excellent article at her website:
          http://wodefordhall.com/editorials.htm

          - Abe Akirakeiko.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • JL Badgley
          On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:23 PM, William Giltner ... Fortunately, the lady (if she should be called that) who was attempting to dupe another did not know what
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 9, 2010
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            On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:23 PM, William Giltner
            <iron_river_armoury@...> wrote:
            > *Blush*
            >  The obi thing comes from Rate of customer satisfaction (per/Hour)
            > *nosebleed*
            >  A proper lady would have hers tied in the back (as Normal) a Street courteasan would have hers tied in the front (easier and FASTER to get to).
            >
            >   At least that is my understanding from listening to one lady take pleasure in recounting how she had shown a lady (that she didnt like) to tie it in the front.
            >

            Fortunately, the lady (if she should be called that) who was
            attempting to dupe another did not know what she was talking about.
            That may be an Edo period tradition, but it definitely isn't in our
            period of study:

            http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3986721182/in/set-72157622402471317/

            That's from "The Maple Viewers". These are all respectable people
            (men on one side, women on the other), and look at the obi on these
            women. I'm willing to bet they'd have words with anyone who called
            them prostitutes.

            There are many more such pictures we can dig up.

            -Ii
          • wodeford
            ... You beat me to it. Saionji no Whew
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 9, 2010
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
              > For a far more complete analysis, including references to period art, see
              > our own Saionji-hime's excellent article at her website:
              > http://wodefordhall.com/editorials.htm

              You beat me to it.

              Saionji no Whew
            • heiannoyukiume
              Obi were tied at the front by all women until fairly recent time periods. Around the Edo period, courtesans (called oiran or tayuu) started tying the in the
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 10, 2010
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                Obi were tied at the front by all women until fairly recent time periods. Around the Edo period, courtesans (called oiran or tayuu) started tying the in the front, while other women started tying theirs in the back.

                This was not, as commonly speculated, because it was easier to untie that way, but because tying obi in the front was the style of that time period for married women, and courtesans were in effect "wives for a night."

                Source: "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" by Liza Dalby, The Costume Museum of Kyoto Website, various references cited at Immortal Geisha Forums

                I believe that in the Heian through Sengoku periods, front-tied obi for women were almost (if not completely) universal. I can't think of any period sources indicating a back-tied obi; perhaps Saionji-hime might have some more references about this, though, as she's more the expert on period women's fashion? :?
              • ErinK
                Ah, so I would have known this if I d made more progress on my resolution to actually READ books instead of just buy them (and look at the pictures).
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 11, 2010
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                  Ah, so I would have known this if I'd made more progress on my resolution to actually READ books instead of just buy them (and look at the pictures).

                  Saionji-sensei's article (link elsewhere in the thread) is very helpful too. I think I had actually read that before, and that's why I didn't remember it being an issue.

                  Thanks, everyone!

                  ERIN

                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "heiannoyukiume" <whitefeatherart@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Obi were tied at the front by all women until fairly recent time periods. Around the Edo period, courtesans (called oiran or tayuu) started tying the in the front, while other women started tying theirs in the back.
                  >
                  > This was not, as commonly speculated, because it was easier to untie that way, but because tying obi in the front was the style of that time period for married women, and courtesans were in effect "wives for a night."
                  >
                  > Source: "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" by Liza Dalby, The Costume Museum of Kyoto Website, various references cited at Immortal Geisha Forums
                  >
                • wodeford
                  ... I don t recall having seen any iconographic evidence for back-tied obi prior to 1600, however, costume designer Emi Wada may know something I don t. She
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 11, 2010
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                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "heiannoyukiume" <whitefeatherart@...> wrote:
                    > I believe that in the Heian through Sengoku periods, front-tied obi for women were almost (if not completely) universal. I can't think of any period sources indicating a back-tied obi; perhaps Saionji-hime might have some more references about this, though, as she's more the expert on period women's fashion? :?

                    I don't recall having seen any iconographic evidence for back-tied obi prior to 1600, however, costume designer Emi Wada may know something I don't. She put the female retainers in "Ran" in back-tied obi about 3" wide. This makes practical sense if one is performing tasks where dangling obi ties are going to get in one's way, but I don't know what historical evidence it's based on.

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjyAC2ENl5I is a production video from "Ran" that shows the outfits to which I am referring.

                    Saionji no Hanae
                    West Kingdom
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