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Re: [SCA-JML] Making a Japanese female persona.

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You can probably best integrate the things that you are interested in if you are from the early Kamakura period. That is
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 7, 2010
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig! You can probably best integrate the things
      that you are interested in if you are from the early Kamakura period.
      That is from about the time of the Genpei War up through the Jokyu
      Disturbance. Basically, you will have recognizable military folks
      around, you will be able to own and control land, andd even fight.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar
    • Victoria
      Thank you for all the help and good advice! I m quite certain I will end up mixing activities from many different times - I m already finding an interest in
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 8, 2010
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        Thank you for all the help and good advice!
        I'm quite certain I will end up mixing activities from many different times - I'm already finding an interest in European calligraphy.

        That makes much more sense about uji names now, as well as all the given name, nickname, and title mixing that goes on in medieval Japanese history.

        I've heard about Tomoe Gozen, and it's good to hear that even if she is not a traceable historic figure, she was at least a period concept.

        The Kamakura period looks interesting, I'll certainly look into that. So, after the Jokyu period, did women's roles in society become more restricted?
        I've heard of things like kunoichi (something like female ninja/spies, I think) and the wives of samurai learning some combat skills in order to defend their homes in later periods, but it does seem like these are more like women in subservient roles more than independant women making their own choices.
      • Victoria
        I m putting things together very quickly now, after getting my hands on Sei Shonagon s Pillow Book and few books on medieval military history. I want to use
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
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          I'm putting things together very quickly now, after getting my hands on Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book and few books on medieval military history.

          I want to use Torii as a surname, since it sounds quite locative too and I adore those shrine gates. Also, Victoria = Tori = Torii. ^__^

          Would the names in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/26747 be suitable for late Heian/early Kamakura?
        • Jeanel Walker
          There are a whole bunch of -ko and -me names used by commoners during the Kamakura period listed on pages 166-167. I m getting a bit pooped. I can come back
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
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            "There are a whole bunch of -ko and -me names used by

            commoners during the Kamakura period listed on pages 166-167.



            I'm getting a bit pooped. I can come back with more names from the

            Heian period if you wish to be from the Heian period.Your Humble Servant

            Solveig Throndardottir

            Amateur Scholar"

            ohhh please if you can find the time I would be so intrested in female names of the heian to Kamakura period

            it would be a great help.

            May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
            Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takinaga" of Kisimull
            http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
            http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg


            --- On Fri, 3/12/10, Victoria <victoria@...> wrote:

            From: Victoria <victoria@...>
            Subject: [SCA-JML] Names for a Japanese female persona.
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, March 12, 2010, 7:02 AM







             









            I'm putting things together very quickly now, after getting my hands on Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book and few books on medieval military history.



            I want to use Torii as a surname, since it sounds quite locative too and I adore those shrine gates. Also, Victoria = Tori = Torii. ^__^



            Would the names in http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/sca- jml/message/ 26747 be suitable for late Heian/early Kamakura?

























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • wodeford
            ... Was this you? The exact same question came up over on the Tousando: http://tousando.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3188&page=1
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria" <victoria@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm putting things together very quickly now, after getting my hands on Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book and few books on medieval military history.
              >
              > I want to use Torii as a surname, since it sounds quite locative too and I adore those shrine gates. Also, Victoria = Tori = Torii. ^__^
              >
              > Would the names in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/26747 be suitable for late Heian/early Kamakura?
              >

              Was this you? The exact same question came up over on the Tousando:

              http://tousando.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3188&page=1

              Saionji no Needs A Bowl of Tea
              West Kingdom
            • Victoria
              Yes, that was... I m afraid I m still having trouble deciding. I adore Ume, Momo and Ito, but some of the long names from the list (Ayamachi and Higashi in
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
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                Yes, that was... I'm afraid I'm still having trouble deciding. I adore Ume, Momo and Ito, but some of the long names from the list (Ayamachi and Higashi in particular) are just fantastic.
                I'm afraid I'll never find a name that feels right...
              • Melanie Wing
                I feel your pain. It took me over a year to settle on my name. I got myself a copy of *Solveig s **pamphlet* and poured over the names for a long time. I
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
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                  I feel your pain. It took me over a year to settle on my name. I got
                  myself a copy of *Solveig's **pamphlet* and poured over the names for a long
                  time. I discarded any that seemed overused or complicated to pronounce.
                  Once I had a short list of like 40 personal and 40 surnames I had my
                  daughter read them out to me one at a time.

                  My daughter is an avid anime and manga lover so she helped me cross off any
                  that were popular characters from those so I would not sound like a total
                  fangirl.

                  I also had it registered so I had to keep those rules in mind also.

                  It all paid off in the end when someone else with a Japanese persona
                  referred to Ishikawa-san and I realized he was talking about ME!

                  -Ishikawa Ayame

                  On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Victoria <victoria@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Yes, that was... I'm afraid I'm still having trouble deciding. I adore Ume,
                  > Momo and Ito, but some of the long names from the list (Ayamachi and Higashi
                  > in particular) are just fantastic.
                  > I'm afraid I'll never find a name that feels right...
                  >
                  > __._
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jeanel Walker
                  no im sorry that was not me. May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!! Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora Takinaga of Kisimull
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
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                    no im sorry that was not me.

                    May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                    Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takinaga" of Kisimull
                    http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                    http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg


                    --- On Fri, 3/12/10, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

                    From: wodeford <wodeford@...>
                    Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Names for a Japanese female persona.
                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, March 12, 2010, 8:03 AM







                     













                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups .com, "Victoria" <victoria@.. .> wrote:

                    >

                    > I'm putting things together very quickly now, after getting my hands on Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book and few books on medieval military history.

                    >

                    > I want to use Torii as a surname, since it sounds quite locative too and I adore those shrine gates. Also, Victoria = Tori = Torii. ^__^

                    >

                    > Would the names in http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/sca- jml/message/ 26747 be suitable for late Heian/early Kamakura?

                    >



                    Was this you? The exact same question came up over on the Tousando:



                    http://tousando. proboards. com/index. cgi?action= display&board= general&thread= 3188&page= 1



                    Saionji no Needs A Bowl of Tea

                    West Kingdom

























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bryant Richards
                    My wife loves to knit, crochet, and other similiar things, is there a period Japanese craft that falls in that group? In Honor and Service, Uesugi no
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
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                      My wife loves to knit, crochet, and other similiar things, is there a period Japanese craft that falls in that group?

                      In Honor and Service,
                      Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                      House Chiburi





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • JL Badgley
                      On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:24 AM, Bryant Richards ... Fingerloop braiding might come the closest. I ve not seen any evidence that the Japanese knitted;
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
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                        On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:24 AM, Bryant Richards
                        <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:
                        > My wife loves to knit, crochet, and other similiar things, is there a period Japanese craft that falls in that group?
                        >
                        Fingerloop braiding might come the closest. I've not seen any
                        evidence that the Japanese knitted; possibly because they didn't have
                        much in the way of wool yarn to work with.

                        -Ii
                      • wodeford
                        ... Kumihimo is a braiding technique that might interest her. It s how armor lacings and other braided cords were produced and it is period. Saionji no Hanae
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
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                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > My wife loves to knit, crochet, and other similiar things, is there a period Japanese craft that falls in that group?

                          Kumihimo is a braiding technique that might interest her. It's how armor lacings and other braided cords were produced and it is period.

                          Saionji no Hanae
                        • Bryant Richards
                          ... yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn t like the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was something closer to
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 13, 2010
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                            >Kumihimo is a braiding technique that might interest her. It's how armor lacings and other braided cords were produced and it is period.


                            yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn't like the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was something closer to kniting or crochet


                            In Honor and Service,
                            Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                            House Chiburi




                            ________________________________
                            From: wodeford <wodeford@...>
                            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 6:47:04 PM
                            Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Did the Japanese knit?




                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups .com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > My wife loves to knit, crochet, and other similiar things, is there a period Japanese craft that falls in that group?

                            Kumihimo is a braiding technique that might interest her. It's how armor lacings and other braided cords were produced and it is period.

                            Saionji no Hanae







                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • wodeford
                            ... Not to my knowledge, sorry. Saionji no Hanae West Kingdom
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 13, 2010
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                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:

                              > yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn't like the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was something closer to kniting or crochet

                              Not to my knowledge, sorry.

                              Saionji no Hanae
                              West Kingdom
                            • Quokkaqueen
                              something closer to kniting or crochet What about netting? The knots used in fishing nets might be close to the techniques used in crochet.
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 13, 2010
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                                <<snip>>
                                something closer to kniting or crochet
                                <<snip>>

                                What about netting? The knots used in fishing nets might be close to the techniques used in crochet.

                                eg. this looks like it's from a museum display:
                                http://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/ways-of-the-jomon-world-2/a-hunting-we-will-go/examining-the-jomon-hunter-gathers-toolkit/

                                I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where to find more information about it, though.

                                ~ Asfridhr
                              • carriepalmer.geo
                                How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn t knit? There s no evidence of anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
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                                  How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn't knit? There's no evidence of anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.

                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > <<snip>>
                                  > something closer to kniting or crochet
                                  > <<snip>>
                                  >
                                  > What about netting? The knots used in fishing nets might be close to the techniques used in crochet.
                                  >
                                  > eg. this looks like it's from a museum display:
                                  > http://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/ways-of-the-jomon-world-2/a-hunting-we-will-go/examining-the-jomon-hunter-gathers-toolkit/
                                  >
                                  > I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where to find more information about it, though.
                                  >
                                  > ~ Asfridhr
                                  >
                                • Ellen Badgley
                                  On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 8:42 PM, carriepalmer.geo
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
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                                    On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 8:42 PM, carriepalmer.geo <
                                    carriepalmer.geo@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn't knit? There's no evidence of
                                    > anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Tabi (and shitozu, their non-split-toed equivalent) are not knit but sewn.
                                    My husband (Ii-dono) has made his own tabi and shitozu following historical
                                    patterns-- there are fancy brocade shitozu from the 700's in the Shoso-in in
                                    Nara.

                                    - Abe Akirakeiko


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Deb Strub
                                    They were sewn from brocades and/or thin leather. The only knit tabi I ve seen are modern ones. YIS, Tsuruko _____ From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
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                                      They were sewn from brocades and/or thin leather. The only knit tabi I've
                                      seen are modern ones.



                                      YIS,



                                      Tsuruko



                                      _____

                                      From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                      carriepalmer.geo
                                      Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:43 AM
                                      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Did the Japanese knit?





                                      How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn't knit? There's no evidence of
                                      anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.

                                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups <mailto:sca-jml%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                      "Quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > <<snip>>
                                      > something closer to kniting or crochet
                                      > <<snip>>
                                      >
                                      > What about netting? The knots used in fishing nets might be close to the
                                      techniques used in crochet.
                                      >
                                      > eg. this looks like it's from a museum display:
                                      > http://heritageofja
                                      <http://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-j
                                      apan/ways-of-the-jomon-world-2/a-hunting-we-will-go/examining-the-jomon-hunt
                                      er-gathers-toolkit/>
                                      pan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/ways-of-the-jom
                                      on-world-2/a-hunting-we-will-go/examining-the-jomon-hunter-gathers-toolkit/
                                      >
                                      > I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where to find more information about it,
                                      though.
                                      >
                                      > ~ Asfridhr
                                      >





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Bryant Richards
                                      ... Yeah that s what we thought, but it was worth the shot, thanks to everyone!! In Honor and Service, Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu House Chiburi
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
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                                        >Not to my knowledge, sorry.

                                        Yeah that's what we thought, but it was worth the shot, thanks to everyone!!

                                        In Honor and Service,
                                        Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                                        House Chiburi




                                        ________________________________
                                        From: wodeford <wodeford@...>
                                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 9:02:06 PM
                                        Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Did the Japanese knit?


                                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups .com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@ ...> wrote:

                                        > yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn't like the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was something closer to kniting or crochet

                                        Not to my knowledge, sorry.

                                        Saionji no Hanae
                                        West Kingdom







                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... How about basket weaving? Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
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                                          Noble Cousin!

                                          Greetings from Solveig!
                                          > yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn't like
                                          > the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was
                                          > something closer to kniting or crochet
                                          How about basket weaving?

                                          Your Humble Servant
                                          Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Amateur Scholar
                                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Tabi are made from woven cloth. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
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                                            Noble Cousin!

                                            Greetings from Solveig!
                                            > How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn't knit? There's no
                                            > evidence of anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.
                                            Tabi are made from woven cloth.

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar
                                          • carriepalmer.geo
                                            Well I m sorry I didn t know.
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 15, 2010
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                                              Well I'm sorry I didn't know.

                                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Noble Cousin!
                                              >
                                              > Greetings from Solveig!
                                              > > How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn't knit? There's no
                                              > > evidence of anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.
                                              > Tabi are made from woven cloth.
                                              >
                                              > Your Humble Servant
                                              > Solveig Throndardottir
                                              > Amateur Scholar
                                              >
                                            • JL Badgley
                                              On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:34 AM, carriepalmer.geo ... No need to apologize. FYI, most period socks or stockings I ve seen are actually not knitted. I know
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 15, 2010
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                                                On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:34 AM, carriepalmer.geo
                                                <carriepalmer.geo@...> wrote:
                                                > Well I'm sorry I didn't know.
                                                >
                                                No need to apologize.

                                                FYI, most period socks or stockings I've seen are actually not
                                                knitted. I know that weaving may not be what you're looking for, but
                                                hirao (especially the early ones) are woven by hand, and might be
                                                interesting. If I have time, I'll find some examples for you. There
                                                are even some pretty cools ones where you weave with beads embedded in
                                                the weave.

                                                -Ii
                                              • Chibasama Ryuichiro
                                                I made a hat using some basket weaving techniques. I m sure it s not period, but with a little research, it might be something she enjoys. Live, Love, Learn!
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 15, 2010
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                                                  I made a hat using some basket weaving techniques. I'm sure it's not
                                                  period, but with a little research, it might be something she enjoys.

                                                  Live, Love, Learn!
                                                  -Chiba


                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:39 PM
                                                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Did the Japanese knit?

                                                  Noble Cousin!

                                                  Greetings from Solveig!
                                                  > yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn't like
                                                  > the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was
                                                  > something closer to kniting or crochet
                                                  How about basket weaving?

                                                  Your Humble Servant
                                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Amateur Scholar






                                                  ------------------------------------

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                                                • JL Badgley
                                                  Found this online about knitting in Asia (at least in China), which really kind of surprised me in that they specifically claim it didn t come in until the
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Mar 15, 2010
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                                                    Found this online about knitting in Asia (at least in China), which
                                                    really kind of surprised me in that they specifically claim it didn't
                                                    come in until the 19th or 20th century.

                                                    http://knittingkninja.com/category/knitting-history/

                                                    Kind of surprising; I would have thought at least some nalbinding,
                                                    etc. might have made its way into the trade routes.

                                                    -Ii
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