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Re: [SCA-JML] Making a Japanese female persona.

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  • William Giltner
    Goode lady   If there is NO one period that calls to you and you wish to incorporate your fighting into your personae ...  I would like to mention Tomoe
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 7, 2010
      Goode lady
        If there is NO one period that calls to you and you wish to incorporate your fighting into your personae ...  I would like to mention Tomoe Gozen to you....  And her retinue of female fighters.

      William S. Giltner

      Lrd Tatsuo Okami

      Iron River Armoury

      www.iron-river-armoury.com

      --- On Sun, 3/7/10, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:


      I'm also rapidly becoming a stick jock, and for now my armour will be black plastic covered with a big tunic but one day I hope to make Japanese armour. It would be absolutely fantastic if I could include my fighting in my persona's story and still stay female - but of course, I'm aware that it isn't necessary in the SCA and is probably unlikely or non-existant historically.

      Any advice?






      <!






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JL Badgley
      On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 12:16 AM, William Giltner ... Just a note: The historical nature of Tomoe Gozen as a fighter is doubted. Still, it is an example of
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 7, 2010
        On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 12:16 AM, William Giltner
        <iron_river_armoury@...> wrote:
        > Goode lady
        >   If there is NO one period that calls to you and you wish to incorporate your fighting into your personae ...  I would like to mention Tomoe Gozen to you....  And her retinue of female fighters.
        >
        Just a note: The historical nature of Tomoe Gozen as a fighter is
        doubted. Still, it is an example of the Japanese *idea* of a woman at
        war (as would be Empress Jingu).

        -Ii
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You can probably best integrate the things that you are interested in if you are from the early Kamakura period. That is
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 7, 2010
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig! You can probably best integrate the things
          that you are interested in if you are from the early Kamakura period.
          That is from about the time of the Genpei War up through the Jokyu
          Disturbance. Basically, you will have recognizable military folks
          around, you will be able to own and control land, andd even fight.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
        • Victoria
          Thank you for all the help and good advice! I m quite certain I will end up mixing activities from many different times - I m already finding an interest in
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 8, 2010
            Thank you for all the help and good advice!
            I'm quite certain I will end up mixing activities from many different times - I'm already finding an interest in European calligraphy.

            That makes much more sense about uji names now, as well as all the given name, nickname, and title mixing that goes on in medieval Japanese history.

            I've heard about Tomoe Gozen, and it's good to hear that even if she is not a traceable historic figure, she was at least a period concept.

            The Kamakura period looks interesting, I'll certainly look into that. So, after the Jokyu period, did women's roles in society become more restricted?
            I've heard of things like kunoichi (something like female ninja/spies, I think) and the wives of samurai learning some combat skills in order to defend their homes in later periods, but it does seem like these are more like women in subservient roles more than independant women making their own choices.
          • Victoria
            I m putting things together very quickly now, after getting my hands on Sei Shonagon s Pillow Book and few books on medieval military history. I want to use
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
              I'm putting things together very quickly now, after getting my hands on Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book and few books on medieval military history.

              I want to use Torii as a surname, since it sounds quite locative too and I adore those shrine gates. Also, Victoria = Tori = Torii. ^__^

              Would the names in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/26747 be suitable for late Heian/early Kamakura?
            • Jeanel Walker
              There are a whole bunch of -ko and -me names used by commoners during the Kamakura period listed on pages 166-167. I m getting a bit pooped. I can come back
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
                "There are a whole bunch of -ko and -me names used by

                commoners during the Kamakura period listed on pages 166-167.



                I'm getting a bit pooped. I can come back with more names from the

                Heian period if you wish to be from the Heian period.Your Humble Servant

                Solveig Throndardottir

                Amateur Scholar"

                ohhh please if you can find the time I would be so intrested in female names of the heian to Kamakura period

                it would be a great help.

                May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takinaga" of Kisimull
                http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg


                --- On Fri, 3/12/10, Victoria <victoria@...> wrote:

                From: Victoria <victoria@...>
                Subject: [SCA-JML] Names for a Japanese female persona.
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, March 12, 2010, 7:02 AM







                 









                I'm putting things together very quickly now, after getting my hands on Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book and few books on medieval military history.



                I want to use Torii as a surname, since it sounds quite locative too and I adore those shrine gates. Also, Victoria = Tori = Torii. ^__^



                Would the names in http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/sca- jml/message/ 26747 be suitable for late Heian/early Kamakura?

























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • wodeford
                ... Was this you? The exact same question came up over on the Tousando: http://tousando.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3188&page=1
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria" <victoria@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm putting things together very quickly now, after getting my hands on Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book and few books on medieval military history.
                  >
                  > I want to use Torii as a surname, since it sounds quite locative too and I adore those shrine gates. Also, Victoria = Tori = Torii. ^__^
                  >
                  > Would the names in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/26747 be suitable for late Heian/early Kamakura?
                  >

                  Was this you? The exact same question came up over on the Tousando:

                  http://tousando.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3188&page=1

                  Saionji no Needs A Bowl of Tea
                  West Kingdom
                • Victoria
                  Yes, that was... I m afraid I m still having trouble deciding. I adore Ume, Momo and Ito, but some of the long names from the list (Ayamachi and Higashi in
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
                    Yes, that was... I'm afraid I'm still having trouble deciding. I adore Ume, Momo and Ito, but some of the long names from the list (Ayamachi and Higashi in particular) are just fantastic.
                    I'm afraid I'll never find a name that feels right...
                  • Melanie Wing
                    I feel your pain. It took me over a year to settle on my name. I got myself a copy of *Solveig s **pamphlet* and poured over the names for a long time. I
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
                      I feel your pain. It took me over a year to settle on my name. I got
                      myself a copy of *Solveig's **pamphlet* and poured over the names for a long
                      time. I discarded any that seemed overused or complicated to pronounce.
                      Once I had a short list of like 40 personal and 40 surnames I had my
                      daughter read them out to me one at a time.

                      My daughter is an avid anime and manga lover so she helped me cross off any
                      that were popular characters from those so I would not sound like a total
                      fangirl.

                      I also had it registered so I had to keep those rules in mind also.

                      It all paid off in the end when someone else with a Japanese persona
                      referred to Ishikawa-san and I realized he was talking about ME!

                      -Ishikawa Ayame

                      On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Victoria <victoria@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Yes, that was... I'm afraid I'm still having trouble deciding. I adore Ume,
                      > Momo and Ito, but some of the long names from the list (Ayamachi and Higashi
                      > in particular) are just fantastic.
                      > I'm afraid I'll never find a name that feels right...
                      >
                      > __._
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jeanel Walker
                      no im sorry that was not me. May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!! Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora Takinaga of Kisimull
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
                        no im sorry that was not me.

                        May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                        Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takinaga" of Kisimull
                        http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                        http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg


                        --- On Fri, 3/12/10, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

                        From: wodeford <wodeford@...>
                        Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Names for a Japanese female persona.
                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, March 12, 2010, 8:03 AM







                         













                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups .com, "Victoria" <victoria@.. .> wrote:

                        >

                        > I'm putting things together very quickly now, after getting my hands on Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book and few books on medieval military history.

                        >

                        > I want to use Torii as a surname, since it sounds quite locative too and I adore those shrine gates. Also, Victoria = Tori = Torii. ^__^

                        >

                        > Would the names in http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/sca- jml/message/ 26747 be suitable for late Heian/early Kamakura?

                        >



                        Was this you? The exact same question came up over on the Tousando:



                        http://tousando. proboards. com/index. cgi?action= display&board= general&thread= 3188&page= 1



                        Saionji no Needs A Bowl of Tea

                        West Kingdom

























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bryant Richards
                        My wife loves to knit, crochet, and other similiar things, is there a period Japanese craft that falls in that group? In Honor and Service, Uesugi no
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
                          My wife loves to knit, crochet, and other similiar things, is there a period Japanese craft that falls in that group?

                          In Honor and Service,
                          Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                          House Chiburi





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • JL Badgley
                          On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:24 AM, Bryant Richards ... Fingerloop braiding might come the closest. I ve not seen any evidence that the Japanese knitted;
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
                            On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:24 AM, Bryant Richards
                            <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:
                            > My wife loves to knit, crochet, and other similiar things, is there a period Japanese craft that falls in that group?
                            >
                            Fingerloop braiding might come the closest. I've not seen any
                            evidence that the Japanese knitted; possibly because they didn't have
                            much in the way of wool yarn to work with.

                            -Ii
                          • wodeford
                            ... Kumihimo is a braiding technique that might interest her. It s how armor lacings and other braided cords were produced and it is period. Saionji no Hanae
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 12, 2010
                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > My wife loves to knit, crochet, and other similiar things, is there a period Japanese craft that falls in that group?

                              Kumihimo is a braiding technique that might interest her. It's how armor lacings and other braided cords were produced and it is period.

                              Saionji no Hanae
                            • Bryant Richards
                              ... yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn t like the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was something closer to
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 13, 2010
                                >Kumihimo is a braiding technique that might interest her. It's how armor lacings and other braided cords were produced and it is period.


                                yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn't like the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was something closer to kniting or crochet


                                In Honor and Service,
                                Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                                House Chiburi




                                ________________________________
                                From: wodeford <wodeford@...>
                                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 6:47:04 PM
                                Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Did the Japanese knit?




                                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups .com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@ ...> wrote:
                                >
                                > My wife loves to knit, crochet, and other similiar things, is there a period Japanese craft that falls in that group?

                                Kumihimo is a braiding technique that might interest her. It's how armor lacings and other braided cords were produced and it is period.

                                Saionji no Hanae







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • wodeford
                                ... Not to my knowledge, sorry. Saionji no Hanae West Kingdom
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 13, 2010
                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:

                                  > yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn't like the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was something closer to kniting or crochet

                                  Not to my knowledge, sorry.

                                  Saionji no Hanae
                                  West Kingdom
                                • Quokkaqueen
                                  something closer to kniting or crochet What about netting? The knots used in fishing nets might be close to the techniques used in crochet.
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 13, 2010
                                    <<snip>>
                                    something closer to kniting or crochet
                                    <<snip>>

                                    What about netting? The knots used in fishing nets might be close to the techniques used in crochet.

                                    eg. this looks like it's from a museum display:
                                    http://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/ways-of-the-jomon-world-2/a-hunting-we-will-go/examining-the-jomon-hunter-gathers-toolkit/

                                    I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where to find more information about it, though.

                                    ~ Asfridhr
                                  • carriepalmer.geo
                                    How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn t knit? There s no evidence of anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
                                      How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn't knit? There's no evidence of anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.

                                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > <<snip>>
                                      > something closer to kniting or crochet
                                      > <<snip>>
                                      >
                                      > What about netting? The knots used in fishing nets might be close to the techniques used in crochet.
                                      >
                                      > eg. this looks like it's from a museum display:
                                      > http://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/ways-of-the-jomon-world-2/a-hunting-we-will-go/examining-the-jomon-hunter-gathers-toolkit/
                                      >
                                      > I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where to find more information about it, though.
                                      >
                                      > ~ Asfridhr
                                      >
                                    • Ellen Badgley
                                      On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 8:42 PM, carriepalmer.geo
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
                                        On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 8:42 PM, carriepalmer.geo <
                                        carriepalmer.geo@...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn't knit? There's no evidence of
                                        > anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Tabi (and shitozu, their non-split-toed equivalent) are not knit but sewn.
                                        My husband (Ii-dono) has made his own tabi and shitozu following historical
                                        patterns-- there are fancy brocade shitozu from the 700's in the Shoso-in in
                                        Nara.

                                        - Abe Akirakeiko


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Deb Strub
                                        They were sewn from brocades and/or thin leather. The only knit tabi I ve seen are modern ones. YIS, Tsuruko _____ From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
                                          They were sewn from brocades and/or thin leather. The only knit tabi I've
                                          seen are modern ones.



                                          YIS,



                                          Tsuruko



                                          _____

                                          From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                          carriepalmer.geo
                                          Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:43 AM
                                          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Did the Japanese knit?





                                          How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn't knit? There's no evidence of
                                          anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.

                                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups <mailto:sca-jml%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                          "Quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > <<snip>>
                                          > something closer to kniting or crochet
                                          > <<snip>>
                                          >
                                          > What about netting? The knots used in fishing nets might be close to the
                                          techniques used in crochet.
                                          >
                                          > eg. this looks like it's from a museum display:
                                          > http://heritageofja
                                          <http://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-j
                                          apan/ways-of-the-jomon-world-2/a-hunting-we-will-go/examining-the-jomon-hunt
                                          er-gathers-toolkit/>
                                          pan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/ways-of-the-jom
                                          on-world-2/a-hunting-we-will-go/examining-the-jomon-hunter-gathers-toolkit/
                                          >
                                          > I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where to find more information about it,
                                          though.
                                          >
                                          > ~ Asfridhr
                                          >





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Bryant Richards
                                          ... Yeah that s what we thought, but it was worth the shot, thanks to everyone!! In Honor and Service, Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu House Chiburi
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
                                            >Not to my knowledge, sorry.

                                            Yeah that's what we thought, but it was worth the shot, thanks to everyone!!

                                            In Honor and Service,
                                            Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                                            House Chiburi




                                            ________________________________
                                            From: wodeford <wodeford@...>
                                            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 9:02:06 PM
                                            Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Did the Japanese knit?


                                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups .com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@ ...> wrote:

                                            > yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn't like the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was something closer to kniting or crochet

                                            Not to my knowledge, sorry.

                                            Saionji no Hanae
                                            West Kingdom







                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... How about basket weaving? Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
                                              Noble Cousin!

                                              Greetings from Solveig!
                                              > yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn't like
                                              > the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was
                                              > something closer to kniting or crochet
                                              How about basket weaving?

                                              Your Humble Servant
                                              Solveig Throndardottir
                                              Amateur Scholar
                                            • Solveig Throndardottir
                                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Tabi are made from woven cloth. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 14, 2010
                                                Noble Cousin!

                                                Greetings from Solveig!
                                                > How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn't knit? There's no
                                                > evidence of anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.
                                                Tabi are made from woven cloth.

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar
                                              • carriepalmer.geo
                                                Well I m sorry I didn t know.
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 15, 2010
                                                  Well I'm sorry I didn't know.

                                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Noble Cousin!
                                                  >
                                                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                                                  > > How did they make socks (tabi) if they didn't knit? There's no
                                                  > > evidence of anyone crochet to my knowledge later than the 1800s.
                                                  > Tabi are made from woven cloth.
                                                  >
                                                  > Your Humble Servant
                                                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  > Amateur Scholar
                                                  >
                                                • JL Badgley
                                                  On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:34 AM, carriepalmer.geo ... No need to apologize. FYI, most period socks or stockings I ve seen are actually not knitted. I know
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Mar 15, 2010
                                                    On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:34 AM, carriepalmer.geo
                                                    <carriepalmer.geo@...> wrote:
                                                    > Well I'm sorry I didn't know.
                                                    >
                                                    No need to apologize.

                                                    FYI, most period socks or stockings I've seen are actually not
                                                    knitted. I know that weaving may not be what you're looking for, but
                                                    hirao (especially the early ones) are woven by hand, and might be
                                                    interesting. If I have time, I'll find some examples for you. There
                                                    are even some pretty cools ones where you weave with beads embedded in
                                                    the weave.

                                                    -Ii
                                                  • Chibasama Ryuichiro
                                                    I made a hat using some basket weaving techniques. I m sure it s not period, but with a little research, it might be something she enjoys. Live, Love, Learn!
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Mar 15, 2010
                                                      I made a hat using some basket weaving techniques. I'm sure it's not
                                                      period, but with a little research, it might be something she enjoys.

                                                      Live, Love, Learn!
                                                      -Chiba


                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                                      Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:39 PM
                                                      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Did the Japanese knit?

                                                      Noble Cousin!

                                                      Greetings from Solveig!
                                                      > yeah we know about that, I actually do Kumihimo, she doesn't like
                                                      > the braiding, after it just makes cords, she was hoping there was
                                                      > something closer to kniting or crochet
                                                      How about basket weaving?

                                                      Your Humble Servant
                                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                                      Amateur Scholar






                                                      ------------------------------------

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                                                    • JL Badgley
                                                      Found this online about knitting in Asia (at least in China), which really kind of surprised me in that they specifically claim it didn t come in until the
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Mar 15, 2010
                                                        Found this online about knitting in Asia (at least in China), which
                                                        really kind of surprised me in that they specifically claim it didn't
                                                        come in until the 19th or 20th century.

                                                        http://knittingkninja.com/category/knitting-history/

                                                        Kind of surprising; I would have thought at least some nalbinding,
                                                        etc. might have made its way into the trade routes.

                                                        -Ii
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