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Re: [SCA-JML] Battle Cry

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  • Jennifer Kobayashi
    ... So I was wondering, did warriors in Period Japan have common battle crys? I m pretty sure Bonzai! is not period, anyone know? Uesugi no Ryujuichiro
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 13, 2010
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      --- On Sat, 2/13/10, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:

      So I was wondering, did warriors in Period Japan have common battle crys? I'm pretty sure "Bonzai!" is not period, anyone know?

      Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu

      First, I suggest you are actually asking about the exclamation "Banzai" (ten thousand years) as opposed to "bonzai" (miniature trees).

      And indeed, I believe the exclamation "banzai" is period, and very similar to the latin "vivat" (singular) or "vivant" (plural) used in East Kingdom courts (and in medieval sources).

      I can't lay my hands any definitive documentation for "banzai" at the moment, but perhaps someone more versed in Japanese language history can cite something.

      Ki no Izumi
    • JL Badgley
      On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Jennifer Kobayashi ... I could swear I ve seen it... don t know if it was for the Emperor at the time. The cry means
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 13, 2010
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        On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Jennifer Kobayashi >
        > I can't lay my hands any definitive documentation for "banzai" at the moment, but perhaps someone more versed in Japanese language history can cite something.
        >
        I could swear I've seen it... don't know if it was for the Emperor at
        the time. The cry means "10,000 Years", and is a wish for longevity,
        so I imagine it would appropriate for many people.

        The biggest problem I could see is that its appropriation in the early
        20th century has possibly laid various meanings upon it beyond the
        original, which may not present favorably to a modern audience.

        -Ii
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... I believe that the miniature trees are called bonsai. ... Banzai is a cheer which was particularly popular in the
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 15, 2010
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          Noble Cousins!

          Greetings from Solveig!
          > First, I suggest you are actually asking about the exclamation
          > "Banzai" (ten thousand years) as opposed to "bonzai" (miniature
          > trees).
          I believe that the miniature trees are called bonsai.
          > And indeed, I believe the exclamation "banzai" is period, and very
          > similar to the latin "vivat" (singular) or "vivant" (plural) used
          > in East Kingdom courts (and in medieval sources).
          Banzai is a cheer which was particularly popular in the imperial army
          and navy. If you are looking for a more medieval cheer, then go with
          "HAY HAY HOE" which is the cheer that you hear in the movie Kagemusha.

          When meeting on the battlefield, you can engage in nanori, followed
          by an exchange of arrows, followed by an exchange on horseback, and
          possibly culminating on foot. This is the sort of thing enshrined in
          Noh plays such as Atsumori which is in turn based on an incident in
          Heike Monogatari. The nanori is declaring your name. You may choose
          to not declare your name if you consider your opponent to likely be
          unworthy. During actual combat, you should expect such typical shouts
          such as "HAH!" and what nought that you might encounter during a
          kendou match. Banzai did not show up in the kogojiten I just
          consulted. The term "banzairaku" (if I am recalling it correctly) is
          a technical term in gagaku music.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
        • JL Badgley
          On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Solveig Throndardottir ... Ei! Ei! Ooooooooo! is how I ve always heard it. Make sure that you lead the first two cheers
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 15, 2010
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            On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Solveig Throndardottir
            <nostrand@...> wrote:

            > Banzai is a cheer which was particularly popular in the imperial army
            > and navy. If you are looking for a more medieval cheer, then go with
            > "HAY HAY HOE" which is the cheer that you hear in the movie Kagemusha.

            "Ei! Ei! Ooooooooo!" is how I've always heard it. Make sure that you
            lead the first two cheers and then the host (everyone else) should
            yell the last "Oooooooooo!" together. (Note for non-Japanese speakers:
            "Ei" rhymes with "Day" and "O" rhymes with "Oh".

            > When meeting on the battlefield, you can engage in nanori, followed
            > by an exchange of arrows, followed by an exchange on horseback, and
            > possibly culminating on foot. This is the sort of thing enshrined in
            > Noh plays such as Atsumori which is in turn based on an incident in
            > Heike Monogatari. The nanori is declaring your name. You may choose
            > to not declare your name if you consider your opponent to likely be
            > unworthy. During actual combat, you should expect such typical shouts
            > such as "HAH!" and what nought that you might encounter during a
            > kendou match.

            Do you think that you would have heard the formalized kiai on the
            ancient battlefield? I've often wondered about that. I do several
            arts, and they all have slightly different takes on kiai.

            -Ii
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! I suspect that they did engage in kiai due to the psychological and physiological effects of engaging in kiai. Note. A good
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 15, 2010
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              Ii dono!

              Greetings from Solveig! I suspect that they did engage in kiai due to
              the psychological and physiological effects of engaging in kiai.
              Note. A good kiai is really only one or two sounds. Physiologically,
              they help focus your breathing. The psychological aspects are equally
              obvious. Among other things, banzai is just two long. It has four
              count them four mora! Maybe you can shout banzai when running, but
              not when actually fighting. The same goes for hei hei hoooo. These
              are actually cheers and not something you would shout while actually
              engaged in combat. As for "formalized kiai". I doubt that they would
              be formalized. Shouting things would be more a matter of personal
              habit. As for calling blows like in kendou, NAH! That is just about
              unthinkable on the battlefield.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • JL Badgley
              On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Solveig Throndardottir ... But it can be a prolonged yell, held through multiple attacks, or no sound at all. Depending on
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 15, 2010
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                On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Solveig Throndardottir
                <nostrand@...> wrote:
                > Note. A good kiai is really only one or two sounds. Physiologically,

                But it can be a prolonged yell, held through multiple attacks, or no
                sound at all. Depending on the school, some teach to vocalize a kiai,
                and others to internalize it. This, in part, makes me wonder where it
                comes from and whether we have evidence of early kiai vocalizations.
                I'll have to check Yagyu and Miyamoto to see if either of them contain
                reference to it; Takuan may also be useful. Though post-period, I
                would take a lack of their discussion of it as a point against,
                though not entirely ruling it out. Draeger might say something on the
                subject.

                I suspect people yelled on the battlefield; I just wonder if they would kiai.


                -Ii
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