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Heian summer ensemble color question

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  • onewringgold@netzero.com
    This is the link to what I was referring to before. My apologies for it not going through the first time--Aoyama
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 8, 2010
      This is the link to what I was referring to before. My apologies for it not going through the first time--Aoyama
      http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/8.htm
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    • Jennifer Kobayashi
      ... (note: we have different versions of Dalby because my description of 6th month ensemble is page 265) This section of Dalby appear to be a direct
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 8, 2010
        > "onewringgold@..." <onewringgold@...> wrote:
        >> In this picture from the Kyoto Costume Museum (Heian period court lady in everyday wear for summer season--the tan uchigi ensemble), the mannequin is displaying a tan uchigi over a golden yellow/darker tan hitoe. According to Liza Dalby in her book "Kimono Fashioning Culture" hitoe in colors other than blue-green, scarlet-red, or white were rare (p. 276). Her description of the appropriate ensemble to wear in the sixth month is "The chemise must always be white. Over it one wears a single unlined robe in one of the following colors: maroon, old-leaf tan, scarlet-pink, lavender, or turquoise-green" (p. 278). Which is the more accurate depiction--the picture or Liza's description. <<

        (note: we have different versions of Dalby because my description of 6th month ensemble is page 265)

        This section of Dalby appear to be a direct translation from her source: _Masasukeshouzokushou_ or _Colors for a Court Lady's Dress- apparently written for Senior Grand Empress Fujiwara Tashi by Minamoto Masasuke around 1159 (in my book that's noted on p 227-8 in "An Imperial Wardrobe". So the Dalby description is a translation of a specific source - a set of instructions for a specific person at a specific time and of a specific rank.

        The Costume Museum ensemble may well also have a specific, presumably different source, but I don't have any way to establish that, not reading Japanese. It is also possible that the Costume Museum ensemble may be a generic view of ensembles from the entire Heian period. Again - don't know, just speculating.

        As to which is more "correct" - they may both be correct for specific times, or specific ranks of courtwomen, etc.
        If it were me, without any further information, I'd say either choice is justifiable. So make the choice that seems right to you and just know what evidence you used to make the choice.

        If you can find out what source or description information the Costume Museum used, then that would give you another data point to judge from - and I would be interested to know what you found.

        That's my take.

        - Ki no Izumi/Jennifer Kobayashi
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Lisa Dalby performed ethnographic research concerning modern geisha. The Costume Museum focuses on the history of
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 8, 2010
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          > Which is the more accurate depiction--the picture or Liza's
          > description. If I were to recreate this look, would it be better
          > to make the hitoe in white rather than golden yellow as depicted by
          > the Kyoto Museum?

          Lisa Dalby performed ethnographic research concerning modern geisha.
          The Costume Museum focuses on the history of Japanese clothing. When
          in doubt, use the Costume Museum as the preferred resource of the
          two. That said, I'm not at all certain of what Dalby is calling a
          chemise. I suspect that it is an under-garment and may have been made
          of hemp or linen. During Summer, unlined robes made out of
          comparatively thin fabric were worn. The color combinations are for
          those and not for the innermost robe if worn.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
        • Franzi Dickson
          Poking around the Japanese version of the site, it looks like this is the corresponding Japanese page: http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=45
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 8, 2010
            Poking around the Japanese version of the site, it looks like this is the corresponding Japanese page: http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=45

            Here's my somewhat dodgy translation/transliteration of what the page says.

            公家女房夏の褻の装い
            Informal summer outfit for a kuge nyoubou

            これも公家の女房の平常の姿。袿を上に単を重ね、紅の打袴をはき、下に白の小袖をつけている。これは夏用のものとして顕紋紗地で、また酷暑の時は単(ひとえ)のみもあり、単を重ねて袿を略することもある。

            This is another normal look for nyoubou of the kuge class. An uchiki (uchigi?) is layered over the hitoe. She's wearing crimson uchibakama. Underneath, she has a white kosode. This is a summer look with silk gauze with a woven pattern (kenmonsa/kemonsa). Also worn with just the hitoe (minus the uchiki over it) in very hot weather.

            (Uh... the nouns are probably all correct there. I wouldn't swear to any of my interpretations of the grammar.)

            1  下(さ)げ髪(がみ)
            Ponytail (sagegami)
            2  下げ髪の鬢批(びんそぎ)
            two shorter locks in the front (sagegami no binsogi)
            3  紗(しゃ)の袿(うちき)[衣(きぬ)]
            silk gauze uchiki (sha no uchiki-kinu)
            4  単(ひとえ)
            hitoe
            5  紅(あか)の打袴(うちばかま)
            red uchibakama (aka no uchibakama--but using the kanji that's also used for 'kurenai', not just the regular 'aka' one)
            6  衵扇(あこめおうぎ)
            folding fan (akome-ougi)

            I don't see anywhere on the site that obviously lists their exact sources for the costumes. The museum's main exhibit is a model of one of the houses in the Tale of Genji with outfits and tableaux that vary by season. If I had to guess, I'd say the difference between this one and the thing Dalby was translating is that this outfit (which is for a nyoubou) is inappropriately informal for Taishi. It's also not clear to me exactly what "summer" means in this context, where this outfit is supposed to be worn, exactly what era this outfit is from, or where Taishi's list of outfits are supposed to be worn. And the costume museum isn't being very specific about exactly when this would have been worn either.

            --Franzi
          • onewringgold@netzero.net
            Thank you for your translation. Your translation was more detailed than what the English version on the Costume Museum provided, especially in describing the
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 8, 2010
              Thank you for your translation. Your translation was more detailed than what the English version on the Costume Museum provided, especially in describing the kemonsa woven pattern, which Dalby also mentions. My question was more about the hitoe underneath, if the golden yellow color or if white would be more correct. Based on other charts I've seen (Baron Effingham's, Kass McGann's, etc.), and I'm assuming they've also based their charts on Taishi's closet, I don't recall seeing a golden yellow hitoe listed in any of the ensembles, even the two-layered summer ones. It was usually blue-green, scarlet, or white as Dalby mentioned.
              Aoyama

              ---------- Original Message ----------
              From: Franzi Dickson <fdickson@...>
              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Heian summer ensemble color question
              Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 12:05:59 -0500 (EST)


              Poking around the Japanese version of the site, it looks like this is the corresponding Japanese page: http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=45

              Here's my somewhat dodgy translation/transliteration of what the page says.

              ������������������������������
              Informal summer outfit for a kuge nyoubou

              �����������������������������������������������������������������­�����������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������­������������������������������������

              This is another normal look for nyoubou of the kuge class. An uchiki (uchigi?) is layered over the hitoe. She's wearing crimson uchibakama. Underneath, she has a white kosode. This is a summer look with silk gauze with a woven pattern (kenmonsa/kemonsa). Also worn with just the hitoe (minus the uchiki over it) in very hot weather.

              (Uh... the nouns are probably all correct there. I wouldn't swear to any of my interpretations of the grammar.)

              1��� ������������������������������
              Ponytail (sagegami)
              2��� ������������������������������������
              two shorter locks in the front (sagegami no binsogi)
              3��� ���������������������������������������������������������
              silk gauze uchiki (sha no uchiki-kinu)
              4��� ������������������
              hitoe
              5��� ���������������������������������������������
              red uchibakama (aka no uchibakama--but using the kanji that's also used for 'kurenai', not just the regular 'aka' one)
              6��� ������������������������������
              folding fan (akome-ougi)

              I don't see anywhere on the site that obviously lists their exact sources for the costumes. The museum's main exhibit is a model of one of the houses in the Tale of Genji with outfits and tableaux that vary by season. If I had to guess, I'd say the difference between this one and the thing Dalby was translating is that this outfit (which is for a nyoubou) is inappropriately informal for Taishi. It's also not clear to me exactly what "summer" means in this context, where this outfit is supposed to be worn, exactly what era this outfit is from, or where Taishi's list of outfits are supposed to be worn. And the costume museum isn't being very specific about exactly when this would have been worn either.

              --Franzi


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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ellen Badgley
              The little Japanese book I have on kasane no irome (ISBN 4916094549) also seems to indicate that scarlet, blue-green, white, or occasionally plum-pink are the
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 8, 2010
                The little Japanese book I have on kasane no irome (ISBN 4916094549) also
                seems to indicate that scarlet, blue-green, white, or occasionally plum-pink
                are the most common colors for the hitoe. However, given the number of
                well-defined two-color combinations (for garment+lining, two layers, etc.),
                plus the fact that color matching was a nuanced and fluid art, I wouldn't
                personally have any hesitation about replicating the Costume Museum's work
                in this case (they are a marvelous source overall). YMMV.

                - Abe Akirakeiko


                On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Franzi Dickson <fdickson@...>wrote:

                >
                >
                > Poking around the Japanese version of the site, it looks like this is the
                > corresponding Japanese page:
                > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=45
                >
                > Here's my somewhat dodgy translation/transliteration of what the page says.
                >
                > 公家女房夏の褻の装い
                > Informal summer outfit for a kuge nyoubou
                >
                >
                > これも公家の女房の平常の姿。袿を上に単を重ね、紅の打袴をはき、下に白の小袖をつけている。これは夏用のものとして顕紋紗地で、また酷暑の時は単(ひとえ)のみもあり、単を重ねて袿を略することもある。
                >
                > This is another normal look for nyoubou of the kuge class. An uchiki
                > (uchigi?) is layered over the hitoe. She's wearing crimson uchibakama.
                > Underneath, she has a white kosode. This is a summer look with silk gauze
                > with a woven pattern (kenmonsa/kemonsa). Also worn with just the hitoe
                > (minus the uchiki over it) in very hot weather.
                >
                > (Uh... the nouns are probably all correct there. I wouldn't swear to any of
                > my interpretations of the grammar.)
                >
                > 1 下(さ)げ髪(がみ)
                > Ponytail (sagegami)
                > 2 下げ髪の鬢批(びんそぎ)
                > two shorter locks in the front (sagegami no binsogi)
                > 3 紗(しゃ)の袿(うちき)[衣(きぬ)]
                > silk gauze uchiki (sha no uchiki-kinu)
                > 4 単(ひとえ)
                > hitoe
                > 5 紅(あか)の打袴(うちばかま)
                > red uchibakama (aka no uchibakama--but using the kanji that's also used for
                > 'kurenai', not just the regular 'aka' one)
                > 6 衵扇(あこめおうぎ)
                > folding fan (akome-ougi)
                >
                > I don't see anywhere on the site that obviously lists their exact sources
                > for the costumes. The museum's main exhibit is a model of one of the houses
                > in the Tale of Genji with outfits and tableaux that vary by season. If I had
                > to guess, I'd say the difference between this one and the thing Dalby was
                > translating is that this outfit (which is for a nyoubou) is inappropriately
                > informal for Taishi. It's also not clear to me exactly what "summer" means
                > in this context, where this outfit is supposed to be worn, exactly what era
                > this outfit is from, or where Taishi's list of outfits are supposed to be
                > worn. And the costume museum isn't being very specific about exactly when
                > this would have been worn either.
                >
                > --Franzi
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jennifer Kobayashi
                ... Dalby translates Hitoe as chemise - and she specifies that herself. And, just to clarify, this section is her translation/interpretation of the Masasuke
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 8, 2010
                  >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>


                  >>Lisa Dalby performed ethnographic research concerning modern geisha.
                  >>The Costume Museum focuses on the history of Japanese clothing. When
                  >>in doubt, use the Costume Museum as the preferred resource of the
                  >>two. That said, I'm not at all certain of what Dalby is calling a
                  >>chemise.

                  Dalby translates Hitoe as chemise - and she specifies that herself. And, just to clarify, this section is her translation/interpretation of the Masasuke shouzokushou by Minamoto Masasuke in her chapter on Heian dress - not her discussion of modern geisha. Granted modern geisha is her expertise.

                  And, as I said before, even if the translation is substantially correct it is apparently one man's advice (Minamoto Masasuke) to one specific person (Fujiwara Tashi) about what to wear - so there are clearly other options, including the specific Costume Museum ensemble. I just wish I knew the source of the Costume Museum's ensemble - as a pie in the sky kind of thing you know.

                  -Ki no Izumi/Jennifer


                  >
                  >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>

                  >>> Which is the more accurate depiction--the picture or Liza's
                  >>> description. If I were to recreate this look, would it be better
                  >>> to make the hitoe in white rather than golden yellow as depicted by
                  >>> the Kyoto Museum?
                  >
                  >>Lisa Dalby performed ethnographic research concerning modern geisha.
                  >>The Costume Museum focuses on the history of Japanese clothing. When
                  >>in doubt, use the Costume Museum as the preferred resource of the
                  >>two. That said, I'm not at all certain of what Dalby is calling a
                  >>chemise. I suspect that it is an under-garment and may have been made
                  >>of hemp or linen. During Summer, unlined robes made out of
                  >>comparatively thin fabric were worn. The color combinations are for
                  >>those and not for the innermost robe if worn.
                  >
                • Jennifer Kobayashi
                  drat - meant to trim the bottom of that message. :-( sorry -Jennifer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 8, 2010
                    drat - meant to trim the bottom of that message. :-( sorry

                    -Jennifer





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Tables of named seasonal two color combinations are available from several different reference works. Such tables
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 8, 2010
                      Noble Cousins!

                      Greetings from Solveig! Tables of named seasonal two color
                      combinations are available from several different reference works.
                      Such tables frequently show up with color illustrations in kogojiten
                      and guides to classical literature. The general consensus among
                      sources is that there were color combinations for Summer just like
                      other seasons.

                      Here are color combinations for Summer: http://www.demoivre.org/Japan/
                      textiles/combinations/Summer/
                      Here are color combinations for all year: http://www.demoivre.org/
                      Japan/textiles/combinations/AllYear/

                      Regardless, there is ample reason to believe that court ladies were
                      colorful during the Summer.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar
                    • Sonny Scott
                      This is the lead story in Google about the Washington DC snowstorm, courtesy of the Times of Asia.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 9, 2010
                        This is the lead story in Google about the Washington DC snowstorm,
                        courtesy of the Times of Asia.

                        http://www.timesasia.net/state-of-emergency-pennsylvania-heavy-snow-fall-washington-dc-snowfall-updated-59531639.htm

                        All the Mid-Atlantic States are beneath the emergency accompaniment due
                        to astringent snow abatement from Friday. The places beneath the
                        emergency action are Maryland, Ohio, Delaware and Pennsylvania. People
                        in these areas are adversity a lot of as they are heavily abased on the
                        accustomed gas food and heating oil.

                        The ballsy snowstorm has alongside brought the activity into arrest in
                        Pennsylvania. The letters of alley accidents accept as well added due to
                        this affectionate of bad acclimate condition. A ancestor and son died
                        calm in alley blow on bright artery in Southwestern Virginia while
                        allowance addition motorist. According to Virginia accompaniment police,
                        a lot of of acclimate accompanying accidents appear aboriginal in the
                        morning. In artery 81 in Wythe County, car came to larboard biking lane
                        as it spun out of ascendancy in arctic lanes.

                        According to acclimate forecast, 20 ??“ 30 inches of blast is accepted
                        in this season. A lot of of the Government offices in Washington
                        bankrupt 4 hours aboriginal that appointed time today due to affliction
                        acclimate conditions. Situation is absolutely bad in southern New Jersey
                        and a lot of of the areas in Virginia. Airlines casework were abominably
                        afflicted and even some railway casework were canceled due to snowfall.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • rayzentz@aim.com
                        And people wonder why there is confusion in th world... Dr. Raymond Zentz It is better to die a free man, than to live, a slave. ... From: Sonny Scott
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 9, 2010
                          And people wonder why there is confusion in th world...




                          Dr. Raymond Zentz

                          It is better to die a free man, than to live, a slave.





                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Sonny Scott <onesoni@...>
                          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:59 pm
                          Subject: [SCA-JML] In the News





                          This is the lead story in Google about the Washington DC snowstorm,
                          courtesy of the Times of Asia.

                          http://www.timesasia.net/state-of-emergency-pennsylvania-heavy-snow-fall-washington-dc-snowfall-updated-59531639.htm

                          All the Mid-Atlantic States are beneath the emergency accompaniment due
                          to astringent snow abatement from Friday. The places beneath the
                          emergency action are Maryland, Ohio, Delaware and Pennsylvania. People
                          in these areas are adversity a lot of as they are heavily abased on the
                          accustomed gas food and heating oil.

                          The ballsy snowstorm has alongside brought the activity into arrest in
                          Pennsylvania. The letters of alley accidents accept as well added due to
                          this affectionate of bad acclimate condition. A ancestor and son died
                          calm in alley blow on bright artery in Southwestern Virginia while
                          allowance addition motorist. According to Virginia accompaniment police,
                          a lot of of acclimate accompanying accidents appear aboriginal in the
                          morning. In artery 81 in Wythe County, car came to larboard biking lane
                          as it spun out of ascendancy in arctic lanes.

                          According to acclimate forecast, 20 ??“ 30 inches of blast is accepted
                          in this season. A lot of of the Government offices in Washington
                          bankrupt 4 hours aboriginal that appointed time today due to affliction
                          acclimate conditions. Situation is absolutely bad in southern New Jersey
                          and a lot of of the areas in Virginia. Airlines casework were abominably
                          afflicted and even some railway casework were canceled due to snowfall.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • danabren
                          It was a ballsy snowstorm, indeed. Kuro/Danabren
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 12, 2010
                            It was a ballsy snowstorm, indeed.

                            Kuro/Danabren


                            > The ballsy snowstorm has alongside brought the activity into arrest in
                            > Pennsylvania. The letters of alley accidents accept as well added due to
                            > this affectionate of bad acclimate condition.
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