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Carving Lapis

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  • JL Badgley
    So, a recent project is to finally make a stone belt (sekitai/ishiobi/石帯). These are the belts you often see officials wearing from at least the Tang
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 29, 2010
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      So, a recent project is to finally make a stone belt
      (sekitai/ishiobi/石帯). These are the belts you often see officials
      wearing from at least the Tang period onward. I've seen the stones
      (which can also be metal) called "belt stiffeners", and you can find
      them from at least Sogdiana to Japan. Here's one from a museum in
      Otsuka, Yokohama (great little place for the pre-historic Japanese
      buffs, including a reconstructed pit village where you can go inside
      the houses):

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/
      (The first one is what I'm going for... the others are done in the
      later period style).

      Anyway, in the Shosoin is one of these belts, but the stones are all
      lapis lazuli (probably imported from Sogdiana/Afghanistan region). I
      was able to get some Afghani lapis at Chatuchak market, and now I'm
      trying to figure out how best to carve it. I've played with a simple
      metal hacksaw blade, and that doesn't seem to want to do it. I figure
      I'll want something that grinds, rather than cuts. My wife suggested
      a string coated in some kind of abrasive as the period way to do it,
      but I'm not sure I have that patience just yet (though I wouldn't mind
      trying it on a small piece.

      Any thoughts?

      -Ii/Jing/Jeong

      PS: Here's the linen prototype of the overrobe for this outfit. This
      is more or less to the dimensions of one from the Shosoin, and may
      become "bumming around" clothes.

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/
    • Elaine Koogler
      You might try talking with either Master Cariodoc, whom I believe works with precious and semi-precious stones...or, if you d like, I can ask on the SCA
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 29, 2010
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        You might try talking with either Master Cariodoc, whom I believe works
        with precious and semi-precious stones...or, if you'd like, I can ask on
        the SCA Laurels' List...you're pretty much certain to get a response
        from there.

        Kiri

        JL Badgley wrote:
        >
        >
        > So, a recent project is to finally make a stone belt
        > (sekitai/ishiobi/石帯). These are the belts you often see officials
        > wearing from at least the Tang period onward. I've seen the stones
        > (which can also be metal) called "belt stiffeners", and you can find
        > them from at least Sogdiana to Japan. Here's one from a museum in
        > Otsuka, Yokohama (great little place for the pre-historic Japanese
        > buffs, including a reconstructed pit village where you can go inside
        > the houses):
        >
        > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/
        > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/>
        > (The first one is what I'm going for... the others are done in the
        > later period style).
        >
        > Anyway, in the Shosoin is one of these belts, but the stones are all
        > lapis lazuli (probably imported from Sogdiana/Afghanistan region). I
        > was able to get some Afghani lapis at Chatuchak market, and now I'm
        > trying to figure out how best to carve it. I've played with a simple
        > metal hacksaw blade, and that doesn't seem to want to do it. I figure
        > I'll want something that grinds, rather than cuts. My wife suggested
        > a string coated in some kind of abrasive as the period way to do it,
        > but I'm not sure I have that patience just yet (though I wouldn't mind
        > trying it on a small piece.
        >
        > Any thoughts?
        >
        > -Ii/Jing/Jeong
        >
        > PS: Here's the linen prototype of the overrobe for this outfit. This
        > is more or less to the dimensions of one from the Shosoin, and may
        > become "bumming around" clothes.
        >
        > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/
        > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/>
        >
        >

        --
        "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
        is invisible to the eye."
        --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JL Badgley
        I would appreciate that--anyone willing to work long distance in particular. :) -Ii
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 29, 2010
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          I would appreciate that--anyone willing to work long distance in particular. :)

          -Ii

          On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote:
          > You might try talking with either Master Cariodoc, whom I believe works
          > with precious and semi-precious stones...or, if you'd like, I can ask on
          > the SCA Laurels' List...you're pretty much certain to get a response
          > from there.
          >
          > Kiri
          >
          > JL Badgley wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >> So, a recent project is to finally make a stone belt
          >> (sekitai/ishiobi/石帯). These are the belts you often see officials
          >> wearing from at least the Tang period onward. I've seen the stones
          >> (which can also be metal) called "belt stiffeners", and you can find
          >> them from at least Sogdiana to Japan. Here's one from a museum in
          >> Otsuka, Yokohama (great little place for the pre-historic Japanese
          >> buffs, including a reconstructed pit village where you can go inside
          >> the houses):
          >>
          >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/
          >> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/>
          >> (The first one is what I'm going for... the others are done in the
          >> later period style).
          >>
          >> Anyway, in the Shosoin is one of these belts, but the stones are all
          >> lapis lazuli (probably imported from Sogdiana/Afghanistan region). I
          >> was able to get some Afghani lapis at Chatuchak market, and now I'm
          >> trying to figure out how best to carve it. I've played with a simple
          >> metal hacksaw blade, and that doesn't seem to want to do it. I figure
          >> I'll want something that grinds, rather than cuts. My wife suggested
          >> a string coated in some kind of abrasive as the period way to do it,
          >> but I'm not sure I have that patience just yet (though I wouldn't mind
          >> trying it on a small piece.
          >>
          >> Any thoughts?
          >>
          >> -Ii/Jing/Jeong
          >>
          >> PS: Here's the linen prototype of the overrobe for this outfit. This
          >> is more or less to the dimensions of one from the Shosoin, and may
          >> become "bumming around" clothes.
          >>
          >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/
          >> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/>
          >>
          >>
          >
          > --
          > "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
          > is invisible to the eye."
          > --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Ellen Badgley
          Kiri-dono, Thank you for the suggestions. I m becoming interested in period lapidary techniques as well, thanks to my proximity to this particular project
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 29, 2010
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            Kiri-dono,

            Thank you for the suggestions. I'm becoming interested in period lapidary
            techniques as well, thanks to my proximity to this particular project (and
            the chunk of lapis we have obtained from the markets here is
            beautiful-- Lord Ii wants to do it justice!)

            Interestingly, in the course of reading through on various Shosoin
            artifacts, I've come across some fascinating tidbits about the use of
            mother-of-pearl in Nara Japan and T'ang China. Evidently the green turban
            shell (Turbo marmoratus) was a highly prized luxury item imported from Tang
            C'hina-- there's at least one whole one in the Shosoin, and a bunch of
            carved pieces such as might be attached to other objects as decoration.
            However, initially it seems that it was the shell itself that was prized,
            and not the pearlescent layers: you see many items with large, carved chunks
            of the shell attached, seemingly without regard to the nacreous lining. For
            example (and the reason I am bringing this up), there is another ishi-obi,
            but with the attached plaques being made of shell rather than stone--
            another fascinating item to recreate, if one could find shells big enough.

            It's especially cool that the green turban shell is still in use for
            mother-of-pearl items here in Thailand and elsewhere in SE Asia: I found a
            whole one in the market here the other day, in a shop selling
            mother-of-pearl objects. "Readymade" A&S items are great, aren't they? ;)

            - Abe

            On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...>wrote:

            >
            >
            > You might try talking with either Master Cariodoc, whom I believe works
            > with precious and semi-precious stones...or, if you'd like, I can ask on
            > the SCA Laurels' List...you're pretty much certain to get a response
            > from there.
            >
            > Kiri
            >
            >
            > JL Badgley wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > So, a recent project is to finally make a stone belt
            > > (sekitai/ishiobi/石帯). These are the belts you often see officials
            > > wearing from at least the Tang period onward. I've seen the stones
            > > (which can also be metal) called "belt stiffeners", and you can find
            > > them from at least Sogdiana to Japan. Here's one from a museum in
            > > Otsuka, Yokohama (great little place for the pre-historic Japanese
            > > buffs, including a reconstructed pit village where you can go inside
            > > the houses):
            > >
            > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/
            > > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/>
            > > (The first one is what I'm going for... the others are done in the
            > > later period style).
            > >
            > > Anyway, in the Shosoin is one of these belts, but the stones are all
            > > lapis lazuli (probably imported from Sogdiana/Afghanistan region). I
            > > was able to get some Afghani lapis at Chatuchak market, and now I'm
            > > trying to figure out how best to carve it. I've played with a simple
            > > metal hacksaw blade, and that doesn't seem to want to do it. I figure
            > > I'll want something that grinds, rather than cuts. My wife suggested
            > > a string coated in some kind of abrasive as the period way to do it,
            > > but I'm not sure I have that patience just yet (though I wouldn't mind
            > > trying it on a small piece.
            > >
            > > Any thoughts?
            > >
            > > -Ii/Jing/Jeong
            > >
            > > PS: Here's the linen prototype of the overrobe for this outfit. This
            > > is more or less to the dimensions of one from the Shosoin, and may
            > > become "bumming around" clothes.
            > >
            > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/
            > > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/>
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
            > is invisible to the eye."
            > --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Eckman
            ... http://www.dadsrockshop.com/blades.html Here are some strings coated with abrasive... It s just that the abrasive is diamond! I m not sure how easy this
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 29, 2010
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              > Posted by: "JL Badgley"
              >
              > Anyway, in the Shosoin is one of these belts, but the stones are all
              > lapis lazuli (probably imported from Sogdiana/Afghanistan region). I
              > was able to get some Afghani lapis at Chatuchak market, and now I'm
              > trying to figure out how best to carve it. I've played with a simple
              > metal hacksaw blade, and that doesn't seem to want to do it. I figure
              > I'll want something that grinds, rather than cuts. My wife suggested
              > a string coated in some kind of abrasive as the period way to do it,
              > but I'm not sure I have that patience just yet (though I wouldn't mind
              > trying it on a small piece.
              >
              http://www.dadsrockshop.com/blades.html

              Here are some strings coated with abrasive... It's just that the
              abrasive is diamond! I'm not sure how easy this will be though, I work
              with much softer stones.

              P.S. One thing I learned in shop class many decades ago is to cut hard
              materials you must use slow cuts with heavy pressure, worked on hardened
              steel, might work on your stone. I would be worried about how brittle
              the stone is though.

              Jim
            • JL Badgley
              On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 9:40 PM, James Eckman ... Thanks for the advice. So far, it doesn t feel too brittle, but we ll see. -Ii
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 29, 2010
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                On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 9:40 PM, James Eckman
                <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:

                > http://www.dadsrockshop.com/blades.html
                >
                > Here are some strings coated with abrasive... It's just that the
                > abrasive is diamond! I'm not sure how easy this will be though, I work
                > with much softer stones.
                >
                > P.S. One thing I learned in shop class many decades ago is to cut hard
                > materials you must use slow cuts with heavy pressure, worked on hardened
                > steel, might work on your stone. I would be worried about how brittle
                > the stone is though.

                Thanks for the advice. So far, it doesn't feel too brittle, but we'll see.

                -Ii
              • Elaine Koogler
                Consider it done! Kiri ... -- /It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry,
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 29, 2010
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                  Consider it done!

                  Kiri

                  JL Badgley wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I would appreciate that--anyone willing to work long distance in
                  > particular. :)
                  >
                  > -Ii
                  >
                  > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...
                  > <mailto:ekoogler1%40comcast.net>> wrote:
                  > > You might try talking with either Master Cariodoc, whom I believe works
                  > > with precious and semi-precious stones...or, if you'd like, I can ask on
                  > > the SCA Laurels' List...you're pretty much certain to get a response
                  > > from there.
                  > >
                  > > Kiri
                  > >
                  > > JL Badgley wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> So, a recent project is to finally make a stone belt
                  > >> (sekitai/ishiobi/石帯). These are the belts you often see officials
                  > >> wearing from at least the Tang period onward. I've seen the stones
                  > >> (which can also be metal) called "belt stiffeners", and you can find
                  > >> them from at least Sogdiana to Japan. Here's one from a museum in
                  > >> Otsuka, Yokohama (great little place for the pre-historic Japanese
                  > >> buffs, including a reconstructed pit village where you can go inside
                  > >> the houses):
                  > >>
                  > >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/
                  > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/>
                  > >> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/
                  > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/>>
                  > >> (The first one is what I'm going for... the others are done in the
                  > >> later period style).
                  > >>
                  > >> Anyway, in the Shosoin is one of these belts, but the stones are all
                  > >> lapis lazuli (probably imported from Sogdiana/Afghanistan region). I
                  > >> was able to get some Afghani lapis at Chatuchak market, and now I'm
                  > >> trying to figure out how best to carve it. I've played with a simple
                  > >> metal hacksaw blade, and that doesn't seem to want to do it. I figure
                  > >> I'll want something that grinds, rather than cuts. My wife suggested
                  > >> a string coated in some kind of abrasive as the period way to do it,
                  > >> but I'm not sure I have that patience just yet (though I wouldn't mind
                  > >> trying it on a small piece.
                  > >>
                  > >> Any thoughts?
                  > >>
                  > >> -Ii/Jing/Jeong
                  > >>
                  > >> PS: Here's the linen prototype of the overrobe for this outfit. This
                  > >> is more or less to the dimensions of one from the Shosoin, and may
                  > >> become "bumming around" clothes.
                  > >>
                  > >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/
                  > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/>
                  > >> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/
                  > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/>>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
                  > > is invisible to the eye."
                  > > --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo
                  > <mailto:sca-jml-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
                  is invisible to the eye."
                  --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Elaine Koogler
                  In my message to the Laurels, I ll ask about this as well... Kiri ... -- /It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential is invisible
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 29, 2010
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                    In my message to the Laurels, I'll ask about this as well...

                    Kiri

                    Ellen Badgley wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Kiri-dono,
                    >
                    > Thank you for the suggestions. I'm becoming interested in period lapidary
                    > techniques as well, thanks to my proximity to this particular project (and
                    > the chunk of lapis we have obtained from the markets here is
                    > beautiful-- Lord Ii wants to do it justice!)
                    >
                    > Interestingly, in the course of reading through on various Shosoin
                    > artifacts, I've come across some fascinating tidbits about the use of
                    > mother-of-pearl in Nara Japan and T'ang China. Evidently the green turban
                    > shell (Turbo marmoratus) was a highly prized luxury item imported from
                    > Tang
                    > C'hina-- there's at least one whole one in the Shosoin, and a bunch of
                    > carved pieces such as might be attached to other objects as decoration.
                    > However, initially it seems that it was the shell itself that was prized,
                    > and not the pearlescent layers: you see many items with large, carved
                    > chunks
                    > of the shell attached, seemingly without regard to the nacreous
                    > lining. For
                    > example (and the reason I am bringing this up), there is another ishi-obi,
                    > but with the attached plaques being made of shell rather than stone--
                    > another fascinating item to recreate, if one could find shells big enough.
                    >
                    > It's especially cool that the green turban shell is still in use for
                    > mother-of-pearl items here in Thailand and elsewhere in SE Asia: I found a
                    > whole one in the market here the other day, in a shop selling
                    > mother-of-pearl objects. "Readymade" A&S items are great, aren't they? ;)
                    >
                    > - Abe
                    >
                    > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...
                    > <mailto:ekoogler1%40comcast.net>>wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > You might try talking with either Master Cariodoc, whom I believe works
                    > > with precious and semi-precious stones...or, if you'd like, I can ask on
                    > > the SCA Laurels' List...you're pretty much certain to get a response
                    > > from there.
                    > >
                    > > Kiri
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > JL Badgley wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > So, a recent project is to finally make a stone belt
                    > > > (sekitai/ishiobi/石帯). These are the belts you often see officials
                    > > > wearing from at least the Tang period onward. I've seen the stones
                    > > > (which can also be metal) called "belt stiffeners", and you can find
                    > > > them from at least Sogdiana to Japan. Here's one from a museum in
                    > > > Otsuka, Yokohama (great little place for the pre-historic Japanese
                    > > > buffs, including a reconstructed pit village where you can go inside
                    > > > the houses):
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/
                    > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/>
                    > > > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/
                    > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613173324569/>>
                    > > > (The first one is what I'm going for... the others are done in the
                    > > > later period style).
                    > > >
                    > > > Anyway, in the Shosoin is one of these belts, but the stones are all
                    > > > lapis lazuli (probably imported from Sogdiana/Afghanistan region). I
                    > > > was able to get some Afghani lapis at Chatuchak market, and now I'm
                    > > > trying to figure out how best to carve it. I've played with a simple
                    > > > metal hacksaw blade, and that doesn't seem to want to do it. I figure
                    > > > I'll want something that grinds, rather than cuts. My wife suggested
                    > > > a string coated in some kind of abrasive as the period way to do it,
                    > > > but I'm not sure I have that patience just yet (though I wouldn't mind
                    > > > trying it on a small piece.
                    > > >
                    > > > Any thoughts?
                    > > >
                    > > > -Ii/Jing/Jeong
                    > > >
                    > > > PS: Here's the linen prototype of the overrobe for this outfit. This
                    > > > is more or less to the dimensions of one from the Shosoin, and may
                    > > > become "bumming around" clothes.
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/
                    > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/>
                    > > > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/
                    > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/4295989764/>>
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
                    > > is invisible to the eye."
                    > > --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
                    is invisible to the eye."
                    --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ErinK
                    If you re not picky about authenticity, a Dremel tool might work. I ve seen a lot of artists carve stones with rotary tools, though I don t know for sure
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 31, 2010
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                      If you're not picky about authenticity, a Dremel tool might work. I've seen a lot of artists carve stones with rotary tools, though I don't know for sure it'll work on something as hard as lapis.

                      ERIN
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