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Dye techniques (was: Re: My latest faux surihaku project can be seen here )

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  • ErinK
    I ve heard you shouldn t use a washing machine for dying if you want to use it for cleaning later. But I have no personal experience on this front. With silk,
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 12, 2010
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      I've heard you shouldn't use a washing machine for dying if you want to use it for cleaning later. But I have no personal experience on this front.

      With silk, since it's so thin, you can dye many, many yards in one (admittedly gigantic) stock pot. I've done 5 or 10 yards at a time. (Okay, maybe not 10, but definitely 5 yards of broadcloth.) I'm also not sure it's safe to use the pot for food later. I had a dye buddy who'd already sacrificed one to garb (he uses it for laundry too). We also used a thermometer to monitor the water temperature, and a big wooden stick to shove the fabric down into the dye, because it balloons up and the pieces on the surface will get less dyed than the pieces on the bottom.

      Saionji-sensei, very nice work! (As usual!) I'm curious about the wicking effect you said you didn't like - I can't see it in the photos. Would you post a photo of that, or share it privately? (I'd love to try this but I don't want to have unrealistic expectations!)

      My clothing tastes seem to be moving later and later in period, so I'm starting to wonder about some of the more elaborate fabric designs - I have the impression they were all woven in, except for this fading dye technique. (And I think some garments were hand-decorated, though I'm not sure that's pre-Edo. I've seen some marvelous Edo-jidai examples of painted robes.) Anyone have evidence otherwise?

      I'll have to play with dye the next time I have some around and see what I can accomplish. There's a sort of "misty cloud" effect that seems to come around before the Edo period that I've always liked....

      ERIN
    • Audrey Bergeron-Morin
      ... Not a problem. Most dye manufacturers will recommend running a wash cycle with bleach before washing again with your machine, and, personnally, I make a
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 12, 2010
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        > I've heard you shouldn't use a washing machine for dying if you want to use it for cleaning later.  But I have no personal experience on this front.

        Not a problem. Most dye manufacturers will recommend running a wash
        cycle with bleach before washing again with your machine, and,
        personnally, I make a point of running a load of black after each dye
        job before washing lighter colours. I've heard that dyes can stain the
        plastic parts of some machines; it's not been a problem with mine.

        > I'm also not sure it's safe to use the pot for food later.

        No, it's not.

        > I'll have to play with dye the next time I have some around and see what I can accomplish.  There's a sort of "misty cloud" effect that seems to come around before the Edo period that I've always liked....

        Please share :-)

        Audrey
      • wodeford
        ... Depends on the dye. Usually, running a cycle with no clothes in after you dye should take care of it. ... I wouldn t. The Tamale Pot Of Doom and Ginormous
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 12, 2010
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "ErinK" <tupan4@...> wrote:
          >
          > I've heard you shouldn't use a washing machine for dying if you want to use it for cleaning later.

          Depends on the dye. Usually, running a cycle with no clothes in after you dye should take care of it.

          > With silk, since it's so thin, you can dye many, many yards in one (admittedly gigantic) stock pot. I've done 5 or 10 yards at a time. (Okay, maybe not 10, but definitely 5 yards of broadcloth.) I'm also not sure it's safe to use the pot for food later.

          I wouldn't. The Tamale Pot Of Doom and Ginormous Wooden Spoon that I use to move dye around with are not used for cooking. I haven't had a problem with dyes reacting to the aluminum, but I've been sticking to the Jacquard Acid Dyes and I know how they behave. A lot of folks prefer to use enamel-ware canning pots. (Stainless steel would also work, but a large stainless pot can be pricy.)

          > My clothing tastes seem to be moving later and later in period, so I'm starting to wonder about some of the more elaborate fabric designs - I have the impression they were all woven in, except for this fading dye technique.

          I recommend that you get your hands on a copy of "Japanese Costume and Textile Arts" by Seiroku Noma. It's out of print, but you can usually find it used fairly inexpensively and it's a great little overview of period kosode embellishment techniques, which include woven designs, embroidery, shibori (resist techniques) and even drawing on the fabric with ink.
        • Deb Strub
          Greetings, I don t use my washing machine for the dye process because I don t trust that I ll get all the dye out. However, after multiple rinsings I wash the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 12, 2010
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            Greetings,



            I don't use my washing machine for the dye process because I
            don't trust that I'll get all the dye out. However, after multiple rinsings
            I wash the dyed fabric in the machine with synthropol, a special detergent
            that you can get at Dharma Trading Co.



            You should NEVER use anything you've used for dye for any food
            application. I use a dedicated enamel pot for hot dyeing like silks and
            dedicated 5-gallon plastic containers for cold water dyeing. Each one of
            these and any utensils used for dye work are marked "dye only". I make sure
            there's plenty of ventilation and wear a dust mask when mixing up powdered
            dye stuff. Its better to be safe than sorry.



            Good luck with future dye projects!



            YIS,



            Tsuruko



            _____

            From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            ErinK
            Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:18 AM
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SCA-JML] Dye techniques (was: Re: My latest faux surihaku project
            can be seen here )





            I've heard you shouldn't use a washing machine for dying if you want to use
            it for cleaning later. But I have no personal experience on this front.

            With silk, since it's so thin, you can dye many, many yards in one
            (admittedly gigantic) stock pot. I've done 5 or 10 yards at a time. (Okay,
            maybe not 10, but definitely 5 yards of broadcloth.) I'm also not sure it's
            safe to use the pot for food later. I had a dye buddy who'd already
            sacrificed one to garb (he uses it for laundry too). We also used a
            thermometer to monitor the water temperature, and a big wooden stick to
            shove the fabric down into the dye, because it balloons up and the pieces on
            the surface will get less dyed than the pieces on the bottom.

            Saionji-sensei, very nice work! (As usual!) I'm curious about the wicking
            effect you said you didn't like - I can't see it in the photos. Would you
            post a photo of that, or share it privately? (I'd love to try this but I
            don't want to have unrealistic expectations!)

            My clothing tastes seem to be moving later and later in period, so I'm
            starting to wonder about some of the more elaborate fabric designs - I have
            the impression they were all woven in, except for this fading dye technique.
            (And I think some garments were hand-decorated, though I'm not sure that's
            pre-Edo. I've seen some marvelous Edo-jidai examples of painted robes.)
            Anyone have evidence otherwise?

            I'll have to play with dye the next time I have some around and see what I
            can accomplish. There's a sort of "misty cloud" effect that seems to come
            around before the Edo period that I've always liked....

            ERIN





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Audrey Bergeron-Morin
            ... I just ordered it for $8 on AbeBooks... very easy to find! I can t wait to read it, thanks for the tip :-)
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 13, 2010
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              > I recommend that you get your hands on a copy of "Japanese Costume and Textile Arts" by Seiroku Noma. It's out of print, but you can usually find it used fairly inexpensively and it's a great little overview of period kosode embellishment techniques, which include woven designs, embroidery, shibori (resist techniques) and even drawing on the fabric with ink.

              I just ordered it for $8 on AbeBooks... very easy to find! I can't
              wait to read it, thanks for the tip :-)
            • Elaine Koogler
              Wonderful book...I ve had my copy for many years. Kiri ... -- /It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential is invisible to the
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 13, 2010
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                Wonderful book...I've had my copy for many years.

                Kiri

                Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:
                >
                >
                > > I recommend that you get your hands on a copy of "Japanese Costume
                > and Textile Arts" by Seiroku Noma. It's out of print, but you can
                > usually find it used fairly inexpensively and it's a great little
                > overview of period kosode embellishment techniques, which include
                > woven designs, embroidery, shibori (resist techniques) and even
                > drawing on the fabric with ink.
                >
                > I just ordered it for $8 on AbeBooks... very easy to find! I can't
                > wait to read it, thanks for the tip :-)
                >
                >

                --
                "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
                is invisible to the eye."
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jenzelofthefirst
                ... I daresay I am well out of my league here but it has been recommended to me that having your fabric wet before dyeing is essential in getting clean dye
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 13, 2010
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "ErinK" <tupan4@...> wrote:
                  > Saionji-sensei, very nice work! (As usual!) I'm curious about the wicking effect you said you didn't like - I can't see it in the photos. Would you post a photo of that, or share it privately? (I'd love to try this but I don't want to have unrealistic expectations!)

                  I daresay I am well out of my league here but it has been recommended to me that having your fabric wet before dyeing is essential in getting clean dye lines. To be fair, my source is a how to book on shibori. And perhaps all dyeing requires that the first thing you do is have your fabric wet. However, on the science end, dry fabric is what allows or capillary action to take place. By having wet fabric in your dip dyes, water in the fabric is already taking up molecular level spaces for dye to get in, thus preventing the further "climb" of dye. Paradoxically, I'm also reading here that wet fabric is what allows for a good dye anyway, as dye particles diffuse through water to get into their dye spots on the fabric. Apparently water both allows and prevents the spread and soaking of dye. (Source: Shibori: creating color and texture on silk by Karen K. Britto ISBN: 0-8230-4815-2)

                  > My clothing tastes seem to be moving later and later in period, so I'm starting to wonder about some of the more elaborate fabric designs - I have the impression they were all woven in, except for this fading dye technique. (And I think some garments were hand-decorated, though I'm not sure that's pre-Edo. I've seen some marvelous Edo-jidai examples of painted robes.) Anyone have evidence otherwise?

                  Indeed, in later period (I'm coming primarily from a Momoyama standpoint) there are a plethora of styles and methods used to decorate clothing. Hands down most popular seem to be Tsujigahana and Embroidery. Tsujigahana is an amalgam of shibori techniques and ink painting used to accentuate shapes made from the aforementioned tie dye. Embroidery is used all over the place for intense colorful pictures and patterns as well. Strangely, the Japanese also seems to have mastered the art of putting metal leaf on their clothing wich is astounding in its decadence.
                • wodeford
                  ... I was told that to get really crisp results with shibori, one *should* wet the fabric before tightening threads and tying them off. I have dyed dry silk
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 13, 2010
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                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "jenzelofthefirst" <andrew.aedo@...> wrote:

                    > I daresay I am well out of my league here but it has been recommended to me that having your fabric wet before dyeing is essential in getting clean dye lines. To be fair, my source is a how to book on shibori.

                    I was told that to get really crisp results with shibori, one *should* wet the fabric before tightening threads and tying them off.

                    I have dyed dry silk with no problems when simply trying to do solid colors. However, it's important to make sure the fabric gets immersed fully and keep stirring it around in the dye to make sure the dye is distributed evenly.

                    The silk was also dry when I dip dyed it. I'm not certain whether this affected my results one way or another, but I'd be interested to experiment with dip dyeing again in my copious spare time. It might be worth trying it with fabric that has already been wetted.

                    Saionji no Hanae
                    West Kingdom
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