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Re: padded uchikake

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  • wodeford
    ... Unfortunately, the photos I ve come across of extant garments usually show the front, and if you re REALLY lucky, the back. It makes it impossible to tell
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 12, 2010
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tsukime_medb" <heidilyn999@...> wrote:
      > However, this picture is from the Edo section of the costume museum (clearly ;-) ) and I normally play Muromachi period. I have done a search in our files and on Tousando and I've seen mentions of padded garments in period, but have not found any sources (I'm happy if there are any examples pre-1600, but would be delighted to find any Muromachi examples). Does any one know of a reliable source that describes or pictures padded garments in period?

      Unfortunately, the photos I've come across of extant garments usually show the front, and if you're REALLY lucky, the back. It makes it impossible to tell if the garment has been padded for insulation purposes, which *would* have been done on winter robes.

      Your link goes to the first page in the Edo section, however, I assume you're looking at a hikizuri uchikake with a padded hem. I can't say for certain, but I don't *think* this was done in period. Hem-only padding is usually done in such a manner that the line of padding shows off a contrasting lining and I haven't seen it so far on any pre Edo garments. I think the reason is that 16th c. uchikake were made of stiff, heavy silks (e.g., brocades) that hold their shape and trail properly without additional reinforcement. Hem-only padding makes the most sense when the uchikake is made of lighter, softer silks.

      I'll take a spin through my books again when I get home just to be sure, but I really don't think I've seen any hem-only padding on pre Edo garments.

      Saionji no Hanae
      West Kingdom
    • Elaine Koogler
      I can t recall where I found the information but I do recall finding out (after I had made a couple with padded hems!!) that this wasn t done in our period.
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 12, 2010
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        I can't recall where I found the information but I do recall finding out
        (after I had made a couple with padded hems!!) that this wasn't done in
        our period. Also late period (Momoyama) robes were made of softer, more
        "drapey" silk than earlier ones...but as far as I can find, still didn't
        use the padded hems. I wish I had the docs at hand but I don't...sorry!

        Kiri

        wodeford wrote:
        >
        >
        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sca-jml%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "tsukime_medb" <heidilyn999@...> wrote:
        > > However, this picture is from the Edo section of the costume museum
        > (clearly ;-) ) and I normally play Muromachi period. I have done a
        > search in our files and on Tousando and I've seen mentions of padded
        > garments in period, but have not found any sources (I'm happy if there
        > are any examples pre-1600, but would be delighted to find any
        > Muromachi examples). Does any one know of a reliable source that
        > describes or pictures padded garments in period?
        >
        > Unfortunately, the photos I've come across of extant garments usually
        > show the front, and if you're REALLY lucky, the back. It makes it
        > impossible to tell if the garment has been padded for insulation
        > purposes, which *would* have been done on winter robes.
        >
        > Your link goes to the first page in the Edo section, however, I assume
        > you're looking at a hikizuri uchikake with a padded hem. I can't say
        > for certain, but I don't *think* this was done in period. Hem-only
        > padding is usually done in such a manner that the line of padding
        > shows off a contrasting lining and I haven't seen it so far on any pre
        > Edo garments. I think the reason is that 16th c. uchikake were made of
        > stiff, heavy silks (e.g., brocades) that hold their shape and trail
        > properly without additional reinforcement. Hem-only padding makes the
        > most sense when the uchikake is made of lighter, softer silks.
        >
        > I'll take a spin through my books again when I get home just to be
        > sure, but I really don't think I've seen any hem-only padding on pre
        > Edo garments.
        >
        > Saionji no Hanae
        > West Kingdom
        >
        >

        --
        "/It is only with the heart /that one can see clearly; what is essential
        is invisible to the eye."
        --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, /The Little Prince/


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Deb Strub
        I agree, I don t recall seeing any examples of hem padded uchikake within our time period. Padded garments were worn in winter but they weren t hem padded
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 12, 2010
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          I agree, I don't recall seeing any examples of hem padded uchikake within
          our time period. Padded garments were worn in winter but they weren't hem
          padded only.



          YIS,



          Tsuruko



          _____

          From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          wodeford
          Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:53 AM
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: padded uchikake





          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups <mailto:sca-jml%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
          "tsukime_medb" <heidilyn999@...> wrote:
          > However, this picture is from the Edo section of the costume museum
          (clearly ;-) ) and I normally play Muromachi period. I have done a search in
          our files and on Tousando and I've seen mentions of padded garments in
          period, but have not found any sources (I'm happy if there are any examples
          pre-1600, but would be delighted to find any Muromachi examples). Does any
          one know of a reliable source that describes or pictures padded garments in
          period?

          Unfortunately, the photos I've come across of extant garments usually show
          the front, and if you're REALLY lucky, the back. It makes it impossible to
          tell if the garment has been padded for insulation purposes, which *would*
          have been done on winter robes.

          Your link goes to the first page in the Edo section, however, I assume
          you're looking at a hikizuri uchikake with a padded hem. I can't say for
          certain, but I don't *think* this was done in period. Hem-only padding is
          usually done in such a manner that the line of padding shows off a
          contrasting lining and I haven't seen it so far on any pre Edo garments. I
          think the reason is that 16th c. uchikake were made of stiff, heavy silks
          (e.g., brocades) that hold their shape and trail properly without additional
          reinforcement. Hem-only padding makes the most sense when the uchikake is
          made of lighter, softer silks.

          I'll take a spin through my books again when I get home just to be sure, but
          I really don't think I've seen any hem-only padding on pre Edo garments.

          Saionji no Hanae
          West Kingdom





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • wodeford
          From Liza Dalby s Kimono: Fashioning Culture (pp. 91-92 of the paperback edition I have). Meiji [*1868-1912] kimono also differ from those of today in the
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 12, 2010
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            From Liza Dalby's "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" (pp. 91-92 of the paperback edition I have).

            "Meiji [*1868-1912] kimono also differ from those of today in the prominence of detail. An example is the section of padded lining showing at the hem and sleeve openings. Often in a contrasting color, the fashionable applea of the fuki, as these protrusions were called, ultimately harks back to the aristocratic eleventh-century aesthetic of layered colors. The fuki was more or less heavily padded at the hem depending on the wearer's age and level of ceremony....." (More padding showing for a young wearer in a more formal kimono, less for an older woman, etc.)

            "The immediate forebear of the fashion of the fuki was the trailing, thickly padded hem (hikisuzo )worn by aristocratic ladies and high prostitutes of the Edo period. These women, who spent most of their lives indoors in elegant attire, knew that a trailing hem held a more pleasing shape and was easier to walk in if weighted with a thick roll of cotton. Trailing kimono were still seen as formal dress for women of good family throughout the Meiji era, but they gradually fell out of favor for anything but the highest ceremony."

            These days one pretty much only sees padded hems on wedding uchikake and performance costumes.

            Hope this is of assistance.

            Saionji no Hanae
            West Kingdom
          • tsukime_medb
            Thank you all, That s what I thought was probably the case. Do any of you have a source for fully-padded uchikake in period? Thank you - Tsukime
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 13, 2010
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              Thank you all,

              That's what I thought was probably the case.

              Do any of you have a source for fully-padded uchikake in period?

              Thank you -
              Tsukime

              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
              >
              > From Liza Dalby's "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" (pp. 91-92 of the paperback edition I have).
              >
              > "Meiji [*1868-1912] kimono also differ from those of today in the prominence of detail. An example is the section of padded lining showing at the hem and sleeve openings. Often in a contrasting color, the fashionable applea of the fuki, as these protrusions were called, ultimately harks back to the aristocratic eleventh-century aesthetic of layered colors. The fuki was more or less heavily padded at the hem depending on the wearer's age and level of ceremony....." (More padding showing for a young wearer in a more formal kimono, less for an older woman, etc.)
              >
              > "The immediate forebear of the fashion of the fuki was the trailing, thickly padded hem (hikisuzo )worn by aristocratic ladies and high prostitutes of the Edo period. These women, who spent most of their lives indoors in elegant attire, knew that a trailing hem held a more pleasing shape and was easier to walk in if weighted with a thick roll of cotton. Trailing kimono were still seen as formal dress for women of good family throughout the Meiji era, but they gradually fell out of favor for anything but the highest ceremony."
              >
              > These days one pretty much only sees padded hems on wedding uchikake and performance costumes.
              >
              > Hope this is of assistance.
              >
              > Saionji no Hanae
              > West Kingdom
              >
            • wodeford
              ...
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 13, 2010
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tsukime_medb" <heidilyn999@...> wrote:
                > Do any of you have a source for fully-padded uchikake in period?

                http://books.google.com/books?id=QfJj1lLzLbEC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=murasaki+%22padded+robes%22&source=bl&ots=AAw_Ngr77s&sig=IYAq01_pYEaPIIJsAGKVduOvKbI&hl=en&ei=1flNS6r7H5P0sgOpnbHOBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false

                for starters. ;-D

                Padding was used specifically on winter garments. A gummy silk fiber known as mawata was put in between the inner and outer fabric layers. None of the descriptions I have run into mention any type of quilting to hold it in place. I'll check again when I get home tonight.

                Saionji no Hanae
                West Kingdom
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Saionji hime! Greetings from Solveig! ... I wonder whether any of the traditional geometric embroidery patterns weren t originally developed for this purpose.
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 13, 2010
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                  Saionji hime!

                  Greetings from Solveig!
                  > Padding was used specifically on winter garments. A gummy silk
                  > fiber known as mawata was put in between the inner and outer fabric
                  > layers. None of the descriptions I have run into mention any type
                  > of quilting to hold it in place. I'll check again when I get home
                  > tonight.
                  I wonder whether any of the traditional geometric embroidery patterns
                  weren't originally developed for this purpose.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar
                • Andrew T Trembley
                  ... IIRC sashiko embroidery originated as a way to strengthen fabric. andy
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 13, 2010
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                    On Jan 13, 2010, at 2:32 PM, Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

                    > Saionji hime!
                    >
                    > Greetings from Solveig!
                    >> Padding was used specifically on winter garments. A gummy silk
                    >> fiber known as mawata was put in between the inner and outer fabric
                    >> layers. None of the descriptions I have run into mention any type
                    >> of quilting to hold it in place. I'll check again when I get home
                    >> tonight.
                    > I wonder whether any of the traditional geometric embroidery patterns
                    > weren't originally developed for this purpose.

                    IIRC sashiko embroidery originated as a way to strengthen fabric.

                    andy
                  • wodeford
                    ... It s also an Edo period development. (Aren t they all? Sure seems like it sometimes.) Saionji no Why Yes I ve Been Asked This Before. West Kingdom
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 13, 2010
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                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@...> wrote:

                      > > I wonder whether any of the traditional geometric embroidery patterns
                      > > weren't originally developed for this purpose.
                      >
                      > IIRC sashiko embroidery originated as a way to strengthen fabric.

                      It's also an Edo period development. (Aren't they all? Sure seems like it sometimes.)

                      Saionji no Why Yes I've Been Asked This Before.
                      West Kingdom
                    • tsukime_medb
                      Excellent! Exactly what i needed! Thanks to all for your help! Heidi
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 13, 2010
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                        Excellent! Exactly what i needed!

                        Thanks to all for your help!
                        Heidi


                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tsukime_medb" <heidilyn999@> wrote:
                        > > Do any of you have a source for fully-padded uchikake in period?
                        >
                        > http://books.google.com/books?id=QfJj1lLzLbEC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=murasaki+%22padded+robes%22&source=bl&ots=AAw_Ngr77s&sig=IYAq01_pYEaPIIJsAGKVduOvKbI&hl=en&ei=1flNS6r7H5P0sgOpnbHOBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false
                        >
                        > for starters. ;-D
                        >
                        > Padding was used specifically on winter garments. A gummy silk fiber known as mawata was put in between the inner and outer fabric layers. None of the descriptions I have run into mention any type of quilting to hold it in place. I'll check again when I get home tonight.
                        >
                        > Saionji no Hanae
                        > West Kingdom
                        >
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