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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: My latest faux surihaku project can be seen here

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  • sigrune@aol.com
    ... From: JL Badgley ... legends. ... defeated an ... with an iron fan. I d never heard the tessen connected to the Yoshitsune legend.
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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      -----Original Message-Edited for Brevity-----
      From: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>

      >The use of the war fan in combat is mentioned in early Japanese
      legends.
      >For example, Yoshitsune, a hero of Japanese legend, is said to have
      defeated an
      >opponent named Benkei by parrying the blows of his opponent's spear
      with an iron fan.

      I'd never heard the tessen connected to the Yoshitsune legend.

      Most tessenjutsu I've seen utilizes a solid parrying device /in the
      shape of/ a closed fan. Not an iron ribbed fan.
      ------------------------------------------------------------

      I have heard or read that somewhere before... personally I feel it is a
      crock

      From the older accounts it was just a normal fan, not something iron;
      nor was it used to parry, it was just somethign Yoshitsune used in his
      acrobatic dance to frustrate Benkei, the dance was supposed to be a
      showcase of his skill and athleticisim... the focus being that even a
      court dance by the hero Yoshitsune was enough to fend off the attacks
      of (supposedly) Japan's best polearmsman of the time. Though not sure
      how leaps to posts, and running along the railings of a bridge and
      flips figured in court dance :)

      I have not seen an extant example of a pre Edo folding fan with iron
      ribs. And only period one extant example of a folding fan with thin
      iron (iron and gold inaly) on the outmost ribs... Since this was in the
      older style where the outer ribs did not cover the whole of the
      fan-paper, I would surmise the use of iron in this case was a
      decorative motif... IIRC it is circa 1560s. In all cases of
      tessenjitsu that have beleiveable historical accounts, it is Edo
      period, and stems from the use and training of the jitte, specifically
      strikes (swats) to the wrists/hands, arm-locks, and jabs to vulerable
      points... and not so much on the parries.

      -Takeda
    • wodeford
      ... (Sighs heavily.) Instructions on how to build a crappy sensu with inferior materials can be found here: http://www.wodefordhall.com/sensu.htm Saionji no
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff's Hotmail" <elrickdelion@...> wrote:
        >
        > That would be awesome. Do you guys know if there is any kind of instructions
        > on how to build one of these fans. I have an idea to make one with titanium
        > ribbing.

        (Sighs heavily.) Instructions on how to build a crappy sensu with inferior materials can be found here: http://www.wodefordhall.com/sensu.htm

        Saionji no Embarrassed
        West Kingdom
      • wodeford
        ... Solid color dyeing with modern chemical dyes formulated for the type of fiber you re working with isn t as difficult as you d think. It can even be done in
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Leonard, Elizabeth A. @ Sacramento" <elizabeth.leonard@...> wrote:

          > I'm convinced that fabric-dying is a
          > science not inferior to neurosurgery.

          Solid color dyeing with modern chemical dyes formulated for the type of fiber you're working with isn't as difficult as you'd think. It can even be done in a top loading washing machine as long as you're willing to keep an eye on it and periodically unwind your fabric from the agitator.

          As I have to share the machine with other tenants and don't want to dye someone else's underwear inadvertently, I usually work on the stove top with a tamale pot big enough to bathe a toddler in. I did the dip dyeing on the orange kosode by folding everything over a sturdy coathanger, dipping it into the dye and gradually raising it back out again.

          Saionji no Hanae
          Apartment dweller
        • Aaron Grossman
          Ways to tell if you re trying too hard #273 - My first thought was I bet I could set up a block and tackle to a winch, in order to precisely measure the fade
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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            Ways to tell if you're trying too hard #273 -

            My first thought was "I bet I could set up a block and tackle to a winch, in order to precisely measure the fade of my dye..." at which point I said "Bad engineer!" and returned to enjoying your garb pr0n.

            Thank you,
            Kawaguchi no Ryutaro
            solver of problems that aren't




            ________________________________
            From: wodeford <wodeford@...>
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 12:13:06 PM
            Subject: [SCA-JML] Re:My latest faux surihaku project can be seen here


            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups .com, "Leonard, Elizabeth A. @ Sacramento" <elizabeth.leonard@ ...> wrote:

            > I'm convinced that fabric-dying is a
            > science not inferior to neurosurgery.

            Solid color dyeing with modern chemical dyes formulated for the type of fiber you're working with isn't as difficult as you'd think. It can even be done in a top loading washing machine as long as you're willing to keep an eye on it and periodically unwind your fabric from the agitator.

            As I have to share the machine with other tenants and don't want to dye someone else's underwear inadvertently, I usually work on the stove top with a tamale pot big enough to bathe a toddler in. I did the dip dyeing on the orange kosode by folding everything over a sturdy coathanger, dipping it into the dye and gradually raising it back out again.

            Saionji no Hanae
            Apartment dweller







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • sigrune@aol.com
            ... From: wodeford As I have to share the machine with other tenants and don t want to dye someone else s underwear inadvertently, I
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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              -----Original Message- Edited for Brevity-----
              From: wodeford <wodeford@...>

              As I have to share the machine with other tenants and don't want to dye
              someone else's underwear inadvertently, I usually work on the stove top
              with a tamale pot big enough to bathe a toddler in. I did the dip
              dyeing on the orange kosode by folding everything over a sturdy
              coathanger, dipping it into the dye and gradually raising it back out
              again.

              -----------------------------------

              I tried that with a hitatare kamishimo combo, but had little luck and
              made a right awful mess... I resorted to a squirtbottle set on mist...
              it didn;t work well either, obviously not enough oomph to the dye and
              heat to set it, most of it washed out... instead of rich dark blue, it
              was pale sky blue.

              -Takeda
            • marteenvanrosenveldt
              Tessen and the Yoshitsune legend. Reference is here:
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                Tessen and the Yoshitsune legend. Reference is here:

                http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFf9e0DmHZUC&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=yoshitsune+benkei+tessen&source=bl&ots=rYGdELqmVf&sig=T_BM7z_-IE4EKRsvgHwCPJ5HPF0&hl=en&ei=bWxLS6ffG4-isgO20rT1Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBQQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=yoshitsune%20benkei%20tessen&f=false

                Unsourced on the page and I don't have my copy of Secrets of the Samurai at work.

                Benkei did become his loyal side-kick so maybe it's true. Or maybe it's like the ending of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend".

                Marten

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@... wrote:
                >
                > -----Original Message-Edited for Brevity-----
                > From: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>
                >
                > >The use of the war fan in combat is mentioned in early Japanese
                > legends.
                > >For example, Yoshitsune, a hero of Japanese legend, is said to have
                > defeated an
                > >opponent named Benkei by parrying the blows of his opponent's spear
                > with an iron fan.
                >
                > I'd never heard the tessen connected to the Yoshitsune legend.
                >
                > Most tessenjutsu I've seen utilizes a solid parrying device /in the
                > shape of/ a closed fan. Not an iron ribbed fan.
                > ------------------------------------------------------------
                >
                > I have heard or read that somewhere before... personally I feel it is a
                > crock
                >
                > From the older accounts it was just a normal fan, not something iron;
                > nor was it used to parry, it was just somethign Yoshitsune used in his
                > acrobatic dance to frustrate Benkei, the dance was supposed to be a
                > showcase of his skill and athleticisim... the focus being that even a
                > court dance by the hero Yoshitsune was enough to fend off the attacks
                > of (supposedly) Japan's best polearmsman of the time. Though not sure
                > how leaps to posts, and running along the railings of a bridge and
                > flips figured in court dance :)
                >
                > I have not seen an extant example of a pre Edo folding fan with iron
                > ribs. And only period one extant example of a folding fan with thin
                > iron (iron and gold inaly) on the outmost ribs... Since this was in the
                > older style where the outer ribs did not cover the whole of the
                > fan-paper, I would surmise the use of iron in this case was a
                > decorative motif... IIRC it is circa 1560s. In all cases of
                > tessenjitsu that have beleiveable historical accounts, it is Edo
                > period, and stems from the use and training of the jitte, specifically
                > strikes (swats) to the wrists/hands, arm-locks, and jabs to vulerable
                > points... and not so much on the parries.
                >
                > -Takeda
                >
              • sigrune@aol.com
                Ah, as I noted (or meant to) no reputable source. While Secrets of the Samurai is an enjoyable read, I (and many others) do not consider Oscar Ratti s book a
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                  Ah, as I noted (or meant to) no reputable source.

                  While Secrets of the Samurai is an enjoyable read, I (and many others)
                  do not consider Oscar Ratti's book a reliable source.

                  -Takeda

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: marteenvanrosenveldt <kenshifencer@...>

                  Tessen and the Yoshitsune legend. Reference is here:

                  http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFf9e0DmHZUC&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=yoshitsune+benkei+tessen&source=bl&ots=rYGdELqmVf&sig=T_BM7z_-IE4EKRsvgHwCPJ5HPF0&hl=en&ei=bWxLS6ffG4-isgO20rT1Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBQQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=yoshitsune%20benkei%20tessen&f=false

                  Unsourced on the page and I don't have my copy of Secrets of the
                  Samurai at work.

                  Benkei did become his loyal side-kick so maybe it's true. Or maybe it's
                  like the ending of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, "When the legend
                  becomes fact, print the legend".

                  Marten
                • Anthony Bryant
                  ... I rank this right up there with all those other massively bogus claims of antiquity and connections to famous dead people that so many martial arts have.
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                    On Jan 11, 2010, at 11:06 AM, JL Badgley wrote:

                    >
                    > I'd never heard the tessen connected to the Yoshitsune legend.
                    >
                    > Most tessenjutsu I've seen utilizes a solid parrying device /in the
                    > shape of/ a closed fan. Not an iron ribbed fan.
                    >

                    I rank this right up there with all those other massively bogus claims
                    of antiquity and connections to famous dead people that so many
                    martial arts have.


                    Effingham
                  • Anthony Bryant
                    ... The book s most valuable aspect is its ability to prop up an uneven table leg.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                      On Jan 11, 2010, at 1:38 PM, sigrune@... wrote:

                      > Ah, as I noted (or meant to) no reputable source.
                      >
                      > While Secrets of the Samurai is an enjoyable read, I (and many others)
                      > do not consider Oscar Ratti's book a reliable source.
                      >
                      The book's most valuable aspect is its ability to prop up an uneven
                      table leg.
                    • wodeford
                      ... Well, mine isn t perfect either. It helps to have a big enough pot to allow you to put the fabric in more or less straight, and a drip bucket to transfer
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@... wrote:
                        > I tried that with a hitatare kamishimo combo, but had little luck and
                        > made a right awful mess...

                        Well, mine isn't perfect either. It helps to have a big enough pot to allow you to put the fabric in more or less straight, and a drip bucket to transfer it to wherever you're going to take it to hang dry.

                        Dark colors frequently require a higher ratio of dye to water. The type of dye and how it reacts to the type of fiber can also affect results as we discovered while playing around with silk dyes and trying them on both silk and linen. We got purple on both, but completely different shades and saturation.

                        I like the Jacquard acid dyes for silk because the most exotic additive required for the process is white cider vinegar.

                        Saionji no Hanae
                        West Kingdom
                      • sigrune@aol.com
                        Yeah, I was using Ritt dye... (I know I know) Had it with salt and vinagar and hot hot hot... can;t remember how many packs I used, but it was about 4 times
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                          Yeah, I was using Ritt dye... (I know I know)

                          Had it with salt and vinagar and hot hot hot... can;t remember how
                          many packs I used, but it was about 4 times the dye to water that was
                          listed (wanted a nice dark portion)

                          The idea was to make it over strong and then weaken it as I dipped it
                          deeper each time to get a nice "fade" to white... not so spiff in
                          execution (especially when I wound up splashing.... :sigh: well at
                          elast it is bale enough to try again some day.... If I can find the
                          darn thing

                          -Takeda


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: wodeford <wodeford@...>
                          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Mon, Jan 11, 2010 4:34 pm
                          Subject: [SCA-JML] Re:My latest faux surihaku project can be seen here




                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@... wrote:
                          > I tried that with a hitatare kamishimo combo, but had little luck and
                          > made a right awful mess...

                          Well, mine isn't perfect either. It helps to have a big enough pot to
                          allow you to put the fabric in more or less straight, and a drip bucket
                          to transfer it to wherever you're going to take it to hang dry.

                          Dark colors frequently require a higher ratio of dye to water. The type
                          of dye and how it reacts to the type of fiber can also affect results
                          as we discovered while playing around with silk dyes and trying them on
                          both silk and linen. We got purple on both, but completely different
                          shades and saturation.

                          I like the Jacquard acid dyes for silk because the most exotic additive
                          required for the process is white cider vinegar.

                          Saionji no Hanae
                          West Kingdom
                        • wodeford
                          ... Rit claims to dye everything. However, everything that the average consumer is likely to want to dye these days tends to be cotton. Some folks say
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Yeah, I was using Ritt dye... (I know I know)
                            Rit claims to dye everything. However, "everything" that the average consumer is likely to want to dye these days tends to be cotton. Some folks say they've gotten good results with it, for what it's worth.

                            > The idea was to make it over strong and then weaken it as I dipped it
                            > deeper each time to get a nice "fade" to white...

                            Actually, all you need to get the dip-dye effect on silk (which is very happy to take dye at any saturation) is to put the fabric in as far as you want before you get to the area you want to reserve as white and then start pulling it back out of the dye bath gradually.

                            For other fibers, you might need to prepare multiple containers at different strengths and add them to the dyepot as you gradually raise the fabric, as described here.
                            http://www.dharmatrading.com/info/ombre.html

                            Rit, unsurprisingly, suggests you overdye using multiple colors.
                            http://www.ritdye.com/Ombre_or_Shadow_Dyeing.37.lasso

                            Saionji no Hanae
                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Secrets of the Samurai is the only source for documenting tessenjutsu of which I am aware. This book is not a
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig! "Secrets of the Samurai" is the only "source"
                              for documenting "tessenjutsu" of which I am aware. This book is not a
                              reliable source. "Tessenjutsu" does not appear as an entry in my
                              large economy size J-J dictionary. As for "Secrets of the Samurai",
                              it also claims that unarmed adepts can kill armed opponents simply by
                              yelling at them. Stuff and nonsense.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar
                            • Solveig Throndardottir
                              Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! ... I believe that it s also reasonably good for starting fires and as nesting material for mice. Your Humble Servant
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                                Baron Edward!

                                Greetings from Solveig!
                                > The book's most valuable aspect is its ability to prop up an uneven
                                > table leg.
                                I believe that it's also reasonably good for starting fires and as
                                nesting material for mice.

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar
                              • Jeanel Walker
                                claims that unarmed adepts can kill armed opponents simply by yelling at them. Stuff and nonsense. I suppose that would depend on how bad there breath is
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                                  "claims that unarmed adepts can kill armed opponents simply by

                                  yelling at them. Stuff and nonsense."

                                  I suppose that would depend on how bad there breath is
                                  mmmm. did i say that out loud?
                                  sorry domo domo
                                  I could not help myself
                                  May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
                                  Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takinaga" of Kisimull
                                  http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
                                  http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg


                                  --- On Mon, 1/11/10, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

                                  From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                  Subject: [SCA-JML] Tessenjutsu BAH! HUMBUG!
                                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 10:00 PM







                                   









                                  Noble Cousin!



                                  Greetings from Solveig! "Secrets of the Samurai" is the only "source"

                                  for documenting "tessenjutsu" of which I am aware. This book is not a

                                  reliable source. "Tessenjutsu" does not appear as an entry in my

                                  large economy size J-J dictionary. As for "Secrets of the Samurai",

                                  it also claims that unarmed adepts can kill armed opponents simply by

                                  yelling at them. Stuff and nonsense.



                                  Your Humble Servant

                                  Solveig Throndardottir

                                  Amateur Scholar

























                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Anthony Bryant
                                  ... It is, indeed. Also, if one has parrots.... Effingham
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                                    On Jan 11, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

                                    > Baron Edward!
                                    >
                                    > Greetings from Solveig!
                                    > > The book's most valuable aspect is its ability to prop up an uneven
                                    > > table leg.
                                    >
                                    > I believe that it's also reasonably good for starting fires and as
                                    > nesting material for mice.
                                    >

                                    It is, indeed. Also, if one has parrots....


                                    Effingham
                                  • Brian Dean
                                    I have that book, and while some info is reliable in there,, some is total hogwash... some sections gave me a good laugh. Hirotora To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jan 11, 2010
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                                      I have that book, and while some info is reliable in there,, some is total hogwash... some sections gave me a good laugh.

                                      Hirotora




                                      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: brytephyre@...
                                      Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:13:08 -0800
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Tessenjutsu BAH! HUMBUG!




























                                      "claims that unarmed adepts can kill armed opponents simply by



                                      yelling at them. Stuff and nonsense."



                                      I suppose that would depend on how bad there breath is

                                      mmmm. did i say that out loud?

                                      sorry domo domo

                                      I could not help myself

                                      May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!

                                      Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takinaga" of Kisimull

                                      http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg

                                      http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg



                                      --- On Mon, 1/11/10, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:



                                      From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>

                                      Subject: [SCA-JML] Tessenjutsu BAH! HUMBUG!

                                      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com

                                      Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 10:00 PM







                                      Noble Cousin!



                                      Greetings from Solveig! "Secrets of the Samurai" is the only "source"



                                      for documenting "tessenjutsu" of which I am aware. This book is not a



                                      reliable source. "Tessenjutsu" does not appear as an entry in my



                                      large economy size J-J dictionary. As for "Secrets of the Samurai",



                                      it also claims that unarmed adepts can kill armed opponents simply by



                                      yelling at them. Stuff and nonsense.



                                      Your Humble Servant



                                      Solveig Throndardottir



                                      Amateur Scholar



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
                                      http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • William Giltner
                                      Oh My    I suppose next you ll claim Tengu dont exist....   Or teach swordsmanship....
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jan 12, 2010
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                                        Oh My
                                           I suppose next you'll claim Tengu dont exist....
                                          Or teach swordsmanship....

                                                                                                                               ;o)

                                        William S. Giltner

                                        Lrd Tatsuo Okami

                                        Iron River Armoury

                                        www.iron-river-armoury.com

                                        --- On Mon, 1/11/10, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

                                        From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                        Subject: [SCA-JML] Tessenjutsu BAH! HUMBUG!
                                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 10:00 PM







                                         









                                        Noble Cousin!



                                        Greetings from Solveig! "Secrets of the Samurai" is the only "source"

                                        for documenting "tessenjutsu" of which I am aware. This book is not a

                                        reliable source. "Tessenjutsu" does not appear as an entry in my

                                        large economy size J-J dictionary. As for "Secrets of the Samurai",

                                        it also claims that unarmed adepts can kill armed opponents simply by

                                        yelling at them. Stuff and nonsense.



                                        Your Humble Servant

                                        Solveig Throndardottir

                                        Amateur Scholar

























                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • sekinakagawa@aol.com
                                        That s nice! To ask a question, may be a moments shame, but not to ask and remain ignorant, is a life long shame. In a message dated 1/10/2010 10:12:58 A.M.
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jan 15, 2010
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                                          That's nice!

                                          To ask a question, may be a moments shame,
                                          but not to ask and remain ignorant, is a life long shame.


                                          In a message dated 1/10/2010 10:12:58 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                          wodeford@... writes:




                                          The green silk is courtesy of the generosity of Ii Saburou Katsumori and
                                          Abe Akirakeiko. The motif was inspired by a tsuba by Hayashi Matashichi that
                                          was part of the Lords of the Samurai exhibit at San Francisco's Asian Art
                                          Museum this summer.
                                          _http://www.miho.http://www.mhttp://www.mhttp://wwwhtt_
                                          (http://www.miho.or.jp/booth/html/artcon/00003274e.htm)

                                          The white sayagata silk was purchased on eBay some time back and hand dyed
                                          at home with Jacquard Acid Dye #606 Deep Orange. The dye wicked somewhat
                                          unevenly during the drying process, so it's not perfect, but I'm still
                                          fairly pleased with the result.

                                          _http://www.flickr.http://www.http://wwhttp://www.flic_
                                          (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70104978@N00/4262000508/)

                                          _http://www.flickr.http://www.http://wwhttp://www.flic_
                                          (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70104978@N00/4261247335/)

                                          _http://www.flickr.http://www.http://wwhttp://www.flic_
                                          (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70104978@N00/4236311898/)

                                          _http://www.flickr.http://www.http://wwhttp://www.flic_
                                          (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70104978@N00/4204315971/)

                                          Please ignore the immodest lack of under kosode that was the result of a
                                          shiftless retainer having forgotten to pack it. Fortunately, these odd
                                          barbarians among whom I must travel did not know the difference.

                                          Saionji no Hanae
                                          West Kingdom






                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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