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Re: Need japanese armor for scene in short film

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  • Captain Zorikh
    That s the spirit! Thanks, anything to help sell this scene will be greatly appreciated. Z
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
      That's the spirit! Thanks, anything to help sell this scene will be greatly appreciated.

      Z

      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Cowan Jeremy <J-Cowan@...> wrote:
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > > We can make it real easy for you -- Musashi and Kojiro didn't <BR>> wear armour in their duel.
      >
      > I'm betting that actually makes it harder for him, rather than easier. He's painted himself into a corner. He said that they are not actually supposed to fight in this scene since the armor tires them out before they get to actually exchanging blows.. But he has two big problems that he didn't expect. Musashi and Kojiro didn't wear armor in their duel and I'd bet that if the armor is worn correctly, it's not THAT tiring.
      >
      > One option for him would be to ignore the facts and continue with his plan since many people would happily buy into the premises. In which case he would still need armor.
      >
      > Or alternatively, perhaps we could help him come up with another plan. Can we think of a famous duel where the opponents would have worn Japanese armor? What can we add to the armor to make it more tiring? Maybe make them wear yumi and they keep getting caught on things or tripping over the bow? I don't suppose anyone ever wore geta with armor - since it is in the winter perhaps an excuse could be made for tall geta in the snow, but they keep falling all over the place? Were there any famous duels with kanabo or something else suitably unweildy?
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • JL Badgley
      There s another famous duel that did happen on the battlefield (and thus likely in armor): Takeda Shingen v. Uesugi Kenshin. In it, Uesugi Kenshin reportedly
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
        There's another famous duel that did happen on the battlefield (and
        thus likely in armor): Takeda Shingen v. Uesugi Kenshin. In it,
        Uesugi Kenshin reportedly made it deep into the Takeda lines, so that
        he was personally face to face with his rival (a very rare thing on
        the battlefield). It happened near a river, and could explain it.
        There might be similar things to bring up, but thanks to things like
        "Heaven and Earth", this is a meeting that is probably well known.

        If you REALLY want the armour to be heavy and stifling, I'd recommend
        poorly made western tournament armour. Still, if you want the
        Japanese thing, you probably want the helmets to have large crests,
        and probably poorly made sashimono (flags) or horo (cape) could help.

        As stated, the problem will be making it believable that Japanese
        armor is all that heavy. Heck, most people who don't know enough
        about it probably think the armor is made of bamboo. A good weapon to
        help here is the "tetsubo"--an studded iron club. Especially if
        someone tries to make it of actual iron (imagine a 6' long club of
        iron). If they use the legend of Benkei and Yoshitsune's duel, iron
        geta (raised sandals) wouldn't be inappropriate for Benkei (and
        watching someone try to fight, let along stand, on them provides
        another possible point for comedy).

        OR... go the Anime route and have one of them bring out one of the
        ridiculous "zanbato" style weapons--huge swords that are just way too
        big and heavy to ever actually work. Heck, two guys in armor, one
        dragging an iron staff and the other dragging an anime-style sword is
        the kind of thing a) I would expect to see from a couple of guys who
        really don't know much about Japan beyond pop culture.

        Hope some of this helps.

        -Ii

        PS: Before I get beat up by folks for historical problems--based on
        the premise, it sounds like two guys who don't really know Japanese
        history other than having heard some bits and pieces about duels.
        Based on that, I figure going out into the wild and whacky side of
        things is actually justified, here.
      • Mori Michimori
        JL Badgley wrote: [...snip...] ... OOOH!!!... I love it. Handles all the pesky anachronistic problems. :) Dôshu -- Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
          JL Badgley wrote:
          [...snip...]
          >
          > OR... go the Anime route and have one of them bring out one of the
          > ridiculous "zanbato" style weapons--huge swords that are just way too
          > big and heavy to ever actually work. Heck, two guys in armor, one
          > dragging an iron staff and the other dragging an anime-style sword is
          > the kind of thing a) I would expect to see from a couple of guys who
          > really don't know much about Japan beyond pop culture.
          >
          > Hope some of this helps.
          >
          > -Ii
          >
          > PS: Before I get beat up by folks for historical problems--based on
          > the premise, it sounds like two guys who don't really know Japanese
          > history other than having heard some bits and pieces about duels.
          > Based on that, I figure going out into the wild and whacky side of
          > things is actually justified, here.

          OOOH!!!... I love it. Handles all the pesky anachronistic problems. :)

          Dôshu
          --
          Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Are you seeking SCA list-legal armor, kendo armor, or museum replica armor? Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig! Are you seeking SCA list-legal armor, kendo
            armor, or museum replica armor?

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
          • Mori Michimori
            ... Noble cousin, at this point it sounds like anime-convention armor might suffice. :) Dôshu -- Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
              Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
              > Noble Cousin!
              >
              > Greetings from Solveig! Are you seeking SCA list-legal armor, kendo
              > armor, or museum replica armor?
              >
              > Your Humble Servant
              > Solveig Throndardottir
              > Amateur Scholar

              Noble cousin, at this point it sounds like anime-convention armor might
              suffice. :)

              Dôshu
              --
              Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
            • Captain Zorikh
              Thanks for your enthusiastic response! I am looking for what will read on camera as Japanese armor (I really can t afford to be all that picky at this point).
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
                Thanks for your enthusiastic response!

                I am looking for what will read on camera as Japanese armor (I really can't afford to be all that picky at this point).

                One of the guys is shorter than the other, and there is a line about "do you know how hard it is to get this in a 42 short?", so having armor that doesn't fit right would actually be OK.

                Whether we get good looking stuff or less good looking stuff, we will make it work. Throw in a line of dialogue, and just accept that the joke will be different depending on what kind of armor we have. I think the minimum I could get away with would be the Kabuto, the Do, and the Sode. The Kusa-zuri would be a bonus, and all else would be gravy (but good gravy).

                In response to everyone else, we are shooting this on a beach, and going all the way with evoking artsy Japanese movies with the filmmaking style, using long periods of stillness, some wooden flute music, small figures against a bleak background, etc. Until one guy looks at his digital watch, pulls down the mask on his helmet and says "what took you so long?"

                I like the idea of walking on the wooden sandles. I may try to work that in.

                Maybe we will throw in a line where the girl they are fighting over says "You know, Musashi and Kojiro didn't wear armor" right after they both collapse.

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                >
                > Noble Cousin!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig! Are you seeking SCA list-legal armor, kendo
                > armor, or museum replica armor?
                >
                > Your Humble Servant
                > Solveig Throndardottir
                > Amateur Scholar
                >
              • wodeford
                ... The late Toshiro Mifune was an imposing 5 9, 160 pounds, and regarded as tall for his generation. A 42 short is probably a lot closer to what would fit
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Captain Zorikh" <zorikh@...> wrote:
                  > One of the guys is shorter than the other, and there is a line about "do you know how hard it is to get this in a 42 short?", so having armor that doesn't fit right would actually be OK.

                  The late Toshiro Mifune was an imposing 5'9, 160 pounds, and regarded as tall for his generation. A "42 short" is probably a lot closer to what would fit the average Japanese samurai than otherwise. Depending on what you end up putting your actors in, you might want to have the joke be about the taller guy having fit problems.

                  Two sen worth,
                  Saionji no Hanae
                  West Kingdom
                • shinomoto yoshinaga
                     yeah sure spoil everyone s fun with your facts and reality and stuff.     Through the bitter and the sweet. The fray stands firm! ... From: Solveig
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 5, 2009
                       yeah sure spoil everyone's fun with your facts and reality and stuff.    

                    Through the bitter and the sweet.

                    The fray stands firm!

                    --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

                    From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Need japanese armor for scene in short film
                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 7:32 PM







                     









                    Noble Cousin!



                    Greetings from Solveig! Are you seeking SCA list-legal armor, kendo

                    armor, or museum replica armor?



                    Your Humble Servant

                    Solveig Throndardottir

                    Amateur Scholar

























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • shinomoto yoshinaga
                    maybe you can get this guys armor? Through the bitter and the sweet. The fray stands firm! ... From: wodeford Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Need
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 5, 2009
                      maybe you can get this guys armor?

                      Through the bitter and the sweet.

                      The fray stands firm!

                      --- On Thu, 12/3/09, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

                      From: wodeford <wodeford@...>
                      Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Need japanese armor for scene in short film
                      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 10:09 PM







                       









                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups .com, "Captain Zorikh" <zorikh@...> wrote:

                      > One of the guys is shorter than the other, and there is a line about "do you know how hard it is to get this in a 42 short?", so having armor that doesn't fit right would actually be OK.



                      The late Toshiro Mifune was an imposing 5'9, 160 pounds, and regarded as tall for his generation. A "42 short" is probably a lot closer to what would fit the average Japanese samurai than otherwise. Depending on what you end up putting your actors in, you might want to have the joke be about the taller guy having fit problems.



                      Two sen worth,

                      Saionji no Hanae

                      West Kingdom

























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Captain Zorikh
                      Thanks for everyone s input and opinions on the matter of this. Now, is there anyone who can help me get some Japanese-looking armor for the scene? The barest
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 9, 2009
                        Thanks for everyone's input and opinions on the matter of this. Now, is there anyone who can help me get some Japanese-looking armor for the scene?

                        The barest minimum we can get away with is the kabuto, the do, and the sode. If I can get the kusa-zuri as well, that would be great. All else would be gravy (but good gravy).

                        Anyone? We really want to shoot the scene on Saturday morning, December 19th on a beach near Coney Island (we got a lovely spot all picked out, storyboarded, etc.).

                        This is a very low-budget project, so we can;t afford a high rental fee, but we will spell your name right in the credits, give you a copy of the finished film, invite you to the screenings, and if you are there in person, we would feed you. We are even willing to travel a reasonable distance (a couple of hours from NYC) to pick it up and return it).

                        Anyone? Or should I get a plastic barrel and work off of the patterns on the Yama Kaminari website?

                        Ervald
                      • wodeford
                        ... The reality is that the number of people portraying Japanese in the SCA world-wide is relatively small and most of us are not local to you. There are
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 9, 2009
                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Captain Zorikh" <zorikh@...> wrote:
                          > Now, is there anyone who can help me get some Japanese-looking armor for the scene?

                          The reality is that the number of people portraying Japanese in the SCA world-wide is relatively small and most of us are not local to you.

                          There are currently about 900 people listed as members of this list, but not all of them are active. There's a lot of overlap onto the Tousando forum, as you may have noticed. Not all of us are fighters, so that reduces the pool as well.

                          If you have not tried contacting the local SCA groups in the East Kingdom directly, that's probably your next step.

                          Good hunting.

                          Saionji no Hanae
                          West Kingdom
                        • JL Badgley
                          ... I would specifically recommend hitting up folks in Yamakaminari, as I believe they are one of the largest groups up your way. How far are you willing to
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 9, 2009
                            On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:29 AM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
                            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Captain Zorikh" <zorikh@...> wrote:
                            >> Now, is there anyone who can help me get some Japanese-looking armor for the scene?
                            >
                            > The reality is that the number of people portraying Japanese in the SCA world-wide is relatively small and most of us are not local to you.
                            >
                            > There are currently about 900 people listed as members of this list, but not all of them are active. There's a lot of overlap onto the Tousando forum, as you may have noticed. Not all of us are fighters, so that reduces the pool as well.
                            >
                            > If you have not tried contacting the local SCA groups in the East Kingdom directly, that's probably your next step.

                            I would specifically recommend hitting up folks in Yamakaminari, as I
                            believe they are one of the largest groups up your way. How far are
                            you willing to travel to pick up and drop off any armor that someone
                            might be willing to lend?

                            -Ii
                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Most or at least Many of the Kaminari folk don t fight so don t have armor. The biggest contingents of Kaminari people
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 10, 2009
                              Noble Cousins!

                              Greetings from Solveig! Most or at least Many of the Kaminari folk
                              don't fight so don't have armor. The biggest contingents of Kaminari
                              people are in Buffalo and Pittsburgh neither of which is exactly
                              close to New York City. One more thing. It takes rather longer to put
                              together a kit of Japanese armor than it does to put together a kit
                              of minimally legal SCA armor.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar
                            • Aaron Grossman
                               It takes rather longer to put together a kit of Japanese armor than it does to put together a kit of minimally legal SCA armor.With all due respect, Lady
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 10, 2009
                                 It takes rather longer to put

                                together a kit of Japanese armor than it does to put together a kit

                                of minimally legal SCA armor.With all due respect, Lady Solveig, if he's making costume pieces for a student short, and clearly isn't terribly worried about authenticity, he can make a pair of barrel-plastic dou laced with Xs and Train Tracks in under a week. Certainly, anyone here would cringe to see it on the field, or presented as work for consideration in an A&S event, but this is not his goal.
                                Now, oh energetic OP, getting any level of fullness to the lacing will require quite a bit of dedication, as well as expense for a one-time prop; something that will pass the "student film 15-foot rule" would not be that hard. You will, I'd expect, have to give up the
                                dream of having kabuto, but fighting bare-headed is a perfectly anime-geek thing to do, and I would not expect it to detract from your intended effect. Please see Master Effingham's page on Odoshi to get a feel for how to lace a dou: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch05.html
                                Especially pay attention to the section on Sugake Odoshi.

                                Unfortunately, I am in Boston, and my suit of hon kozane is far from finished, so offering anything more than ideas is out of my ability at present.
                                Best of luck on your film,Kawaguchi no Ryutaro




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Audrey Bergeron-Morin
                                ... You might have more succes with LARPers than SCA members, and they might have interesting weapons also. I have absolutely no knowledge of the LARP scene in
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 10, 2009
                                  >
                                  > I would specifically recommend hitting up folks in Yamakaminari, as I
                                  > believe they are one of the largest groups up your way.



                                  You might have more succes with LARPers than SCA members, and they might
                                  have interesting weapons also. I have absolutely no knowledge of the LARP
                                  scene in your area though...


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Captain Zorikh
                                  HI Folks. After all the advice I got from this and other message boards, I was unable to borrow more than a pair of helmets from Sir Tanaka (SCA) in NJ, so I
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 13, 2010
                                    HI Folks. After all the advice I got from this and other message boards, I was unable to borrow more than a pair of helmets from Sir Tanaka (SCA) in NJ, so I got a plastic barrel, found some patterns at http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html and http://www.yamakaminari.com/ and recruited help from SCAdians who wanted to build their own Japanese armor. We built a couple of very basic cuirasses with shoulders and with the helmets and judo gis, had exactly the effect we were going for in the movie.

                                    The guys who helped build the armor got to keep it when we were done.

                                    I'll be sure to let you know when we screen it.

                                    Thanks!

                                    Captain Zorikh
                                    http://www.captainzorikh.com
                                  • JL Badgley
                                    Great to hear! I wish we d been able to help you more directly, but I m glad you got stuff working :) -Ii
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 13, 2010
                                      Great to hear! I wish we'd been able to help you more directly, but
                                      I'm glad you got stuff working :)

                                      -Ii

                                      On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 1:37 AM, Captain Zorikh <zorikh@...> wrote:
                                      > HI Folks. After all the advice I got from this and other message boards, I was unable to borrow more than a pair of helmets from Sir Tanaka (SCA) in NJ, so I got a plastic barrel, found some patterns at http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html and http://www.yamakaminari.com/ and recruited help from SCAdians who wanted to build their own Japanese armor. We built a couple of very basic cuirasses with shoulders and with the helmets and judo gis, had exactly the effect we were going for in the movie.
                                      >
                                      > The guys who helped build the armor got to keep it when we were done.
                                      >
                                      > I'll be sure to let you know when we screen it.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks!
                                      >
                                      > Captain Zorikh
                                      > http://www.captainzorikh.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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