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Re: Need japanese armor for scene in short film

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  • Captain Zorikh
    Thanks for your quick reply. I ve seen two film versions of the duel (including the Trilogy) and read a lengthy biography of Musashi as well as Book of 5
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
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      Thanks for your quick reply.

      I've seen two film versions of the duel (including the Trilogy) and read a lengthy biography of Musashi as well as "Book of 5 Rings." We were going to actually have one of the guys jumping off a dingy or rowboat, but practical realities of getting the boat to Coney Island prevented that.

      We will be shooting at dawn, though.

      This film is a comedy. In it the guys happlessly attempot tore-enact historical duels from Hamilton and Burr to Ceaser and Cassius to Dong Hai Chuan and Guo Yun Shen to Abraham Lincoln and Jack Armstrong. The fact that these two guys feel they need to have armor to re-enact his duel, when the original was done without armor, is part of the joke. One of them even brings a oar, without bothering to carve it down like Musashi did.

      The punch line of the scene is that the two guys are so out of shape that they collapse under the weight and stifling-ness(is that a word?) of the armor, and thus never come to blows. Without the armor, we don't have that punch line.

      Z

      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > On Dec 3, 2009, at 10:41 AM, Captain Zorikh wrote:
      >
      > > Hi Folks. Thanks for letting me post this here.
      > >
      > > In the SCA I am known as Ervald the Optimistic, and in the real
      > > world I am Zorikh Lequidre, among other thing, independent film
      > > director and producer.
      > >
      > > The current project I am working on is a short comedy film called
      > > "The Duel," in which two history geeks go all over NYC trying to
      > > find the perfect historical duel with which to resolve their quarrel
      > > over a girl.
      > >
      > > In one of the scenes, the show up on a beach in full Japanese armor
      > > in an attempt to re-enact the duel between Musashi and Kojiro. They
      > > don't actually fight in the armor, they collapse and pass out under
      > > the weight of it.
      > >
      > > The thing is, we need the armor.
      > >
      > > We want to shoot this scene on a beach near Coney Island, Brooklyn,
      > > on the weekend of December 12-13 or 19-21. It would only take about
      > > a half day to shoot.
      > >
      > > This is a very low budget project, so we can't really afford to pay
      > > a rental fee, but if necessary we will cover reasonable
      > > transportation expenses, spell your name right in the credits, give
      > > you a copy when it is done, invite you to the screenings, and if you
      > > come in person, feed you when we shoot it.
      > >
      > > If you can help us, please contact me at zorikh@...
      > >
      >
      > Hi, Zorikh.
      >
      > We can make it real easy for you -- Musashi and Kojiro didn't wear
      > armour in their duel. In fact, virtually no one wore armour for
      > anything but the occasional showboating during most of the Edo period
      > (save that messy double campaign in Osaka and the Shimabara Rebellion).
      >
      > You need regular Japanese clothing -- not armour. I'd recommend
      > checking out the Samurai Trilogy (about Musashi). I believe the third
      > one focusses on the duel on Ganryûjima.
      >
      >
      > Effingham
      >
    • Captain Zorikh
      That s the spirit! Thanks, anything to help sell this scene will be greatly appreciated. Z
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
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        That's the spirit! Thanks, anything to help sell this scene will be greatly appreciated.

        Z

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Cowan Jeremy <J-Cowan@...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > > We can make it real easy for you -- Musashi and Kojiro didn't <BR>> wear armour in their duel.
        >
        > I'm betting that actually makes it harder for him, rather than easier. He's painted himself into a corner. He said that they are not actually supposed to fight in this scene since the armor tires them out before they get to actually exchanging blows.. But he has two big problems that he didn't expect. Musashi and Kojiro didn't wear armor in their duel and I'd bet that if the armor is worn correctly, it's not THAT tiring.
        >
        > One option for him would be to ignore the facts and continue with his plan since many people would happily buy into the premises. In which case he would still need armor.
        >
        > Or alternatively, perhaps we could help him come up with another plan. Can we think of a famous duel where the opponents would have worn Japanese armor? What can we add to the armor to make it more tiring? Maybe make them wear yumi and they keep getting caught on things or tripping over the bow? I don't suppose anyone ever wore geta with armor - since it is in the winter perhaps an excuse could be made for tall geta in the snow, but they keep falling all over the place? Were there any famous duels with kanabo or something else suitably unweildy?
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Mori Michimori
        ... I wonder how necessary the Japanese element is at all. Sounds to me like he wants to reshoot the battle between Robin Hood (Sean Connery) and the Sheriff
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
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          Cowan Jeremy wrote:
          > I'm betting that actually makes it harder for him, rather than
          > easier. He's painted himself into a corner. He said that they are not
          > actually supposed to fight in this scene since the armor tires them
          > out before they get to actually exchanging blows.. But he has two big
          > problems that he didn't expect. Musashi and Kojiro didn't wear armor
          > in their duel and I'd bet that if the armor is worn correctly, it's
          > not THAT tiring.
          >
          > One option for him would be to ignore the facts and continue with his
          > plan since many people would happily buy into the premises. In which
          > case he would still need armor.
          >
          > Or alternatively, perhaps we could help him come up with another
          > plan. Can we think of a famous duel where the opponents would have
          > worn Japanese armor? What can we add to the armor to make it more
          > tiring? Maybe make them wear yumi and they keep getting caught on
          > things or tripping over the bow? I don't suppose anyone ever wore
          > geta with armor - since it is in the winter perhaps an excuse could
          > be made for tall geta in the snow, but they keep falling all over the
          > place? Were there any famous duels with kanabo or something else
          > suitably unweildy?

          I wonder how necessary the Japanese element is at all. Sounds to me like
          he wants to reshoot the battle between Robin Hood (Sean Connery) and the
          Sheriff of Nottingham (Robert Shaw) at the end of "Robin and Marion".
          <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075147/>

          Much more interesting than watching Toshiro Mifune run around swatting
          Pat Morita with a boat oar. (Or maybe not)

          Dôshu
          --
          Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
        • JL Badgley
          There s another famous duel that did happen on the battlefield (and thus likely in armor): Takeda Shingen v. Uesugi Kenshin. In it, Uesugi Kenshin reportedly
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
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            There's another famous duel that did happen on the battlefield (and
            thus likely in armor): Takeda Shingen v. Uesugi Kenshin. In it,
            Uesugi Kenshin reportedly made it deep into the Takeda lines, so that
            he was personally face to face with his rival (a very rare thing on
            the battlefield). It happened near a river, and could explain it.
            There might be similar things to bring up, but thanks to things like
            "Heaven and Earth", this is a meeting that is probably well known.

            If you REALLY want the armour to be heavy and stifling, I'd recommend
            poorly made western tournament armour. Still, if you want the
            Japanese thing, you probably want the helmets to have large crests,
            and probably poorly made sashimono (flags) or horo (cape) could help.

            As stated, the problem will be making it believable that Japanese
            armor is all that heavy. Heck, most people who don't know enough
            about it probably think the armor is made of bamboo. A good weapon to
            help here is the "tetsubo"--an studded iron club. Especially if
            someone tries to make it of actual iron (imagine a 6' long club of
            iron). If they use the legend of Benkei and Yoshitsune's duel, iron
            geta (raised sandals) wouldn't be inappropriate for Benkei (and
            watching someone try to fight, let along stand, on them provides
            another possible point for comedy).

            OR... go the Anime route and have one of them bring out one of the
            ridiculous "zanbato" style weapons--huge swords that are just way too
            big and heavy to ever actually work. Heck, two guys in armor, one
            dragging an iron staff and the other dragging an anime-style sword is
            the kind of thing a) I would expect to see from a couple of guys who
            really don't know much about Japan beyond pop culture.

            Hope some of this helps.

            -Ii

            PS: Before I get beat up by folks for historical problems--based on
            the premise, it sounds like two guys who don't really know Japanese
            history other than having heard some bits and pieces about duels.
            Based on that, I figure going out into the wild and whacky side of
            things is actually justified, here.
          • Mori Michimori
            JL Badgley wrote: [...snip...] ... OOOH!!!... I love it. Handles all the pesky anachronistic problems. :) Dôshu -- Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
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              JL Badgley wrote:
              [...snip...]
              >
              > OR... go the Anime route and have one of them bring out one of the
              > ridiculous "zanbato" style weapons--huge swords that are just way too
              > big and heavy to ever actually work. Heck, two guys in armor, one
              > dragging an iron staff and the other dragging an anime-style sword is
              > the kind of thing a) I would expect to see from a couple of guys who
              > really don't know much about Japan beyond pop culture.
              >
              > Hope some of this helps.
              >
              > -Ii
              >
              > PS: Before I get beat up by folks for historical problems--based on
              > the premise, it sounds like two guys who don't really know Japanese
              > history other than having heard some bits and pieces about duels.
              > Based on that, I figure going out into the wild and whacky side of
              > things is actually justified, here.

              OOOH!!!... I love it. Handles all the pesky anachronistic problems. :)

              Dôshu
              --
              Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Are you seeking SCA list-legal armor, kendo armor, or museum replica armor? Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig! Are you seeking SCA list-legal armor, kendo
                armor, or museum replica armor?

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
              • Mori Michimori
                ... Noble cousin, at this point it sounds like anime-convention armor might suffice. :) Dôshu -- Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
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                  Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                  > Noble Cousin!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig! Are you seeking SCA list-legal armor, kendo
                  > armor, or museum replica armor?
                  >
                  > Your Humble Servant
                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                  > Amateur Scholar

                  Noble cousin, at this point it sounds like anime-convention armor might
                  suffice. :)

                  Dôshu
                  --
                  Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
                • Captain Zorikh
                  Thanks for your enthusiastic response! I am looking for what will read on camera as Japanese armor (I really can t afford to be all that picky at this point).
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
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                    Thanks for your enthusiastic response!

                    I am looking for what will read on camera as Japanese armor (I really can't afford to be all that picky at this point).

                    One of the guys is shorter than the other, and there is a line about "do you know how hard it is to get this in a 42 short?", so having armor that doesn't fit right would actually be OK.

                    Whether we get good looking stuff or less good looking stuff, we will make it work. Throw in a line of dialogue, and just accept that the joke will be different depending on what kind of armor we have. I think the minimum I could get away with would be the Kabuto, the Do, and the Sode. The Kusa-zuri would be a bonus, and all else would be gravy (but good gravy).

                    In response to everyone else, we are shooting this on a beach, and going all the way with evoking artsy Japanese movies with the filmmaking style, using long periods of stillness, some wooden flute music, small figures against a bleak background, etc. Until one guy looks at his digital watch, pulls down the mask on his helmet and says "what took you so long?"

                    I like the idea of walking on the wooden sandles. I may try to work that in.

                    Maybe we will throw in a line where the girl they are fighting over says "You know, Musashi and Kojiro didn't wear armor" right after they both collapse.

                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Noble Cousin!
                    >
                    > Greetings from Solveig! Are you seeking SCA list-legal armor, kendo
                    > armor, or museum replica armor?
                    >
                    > Your Humble Servant
                    > Solveig Throndardottir
                    > Amateur Scholar
                    >
                  • wodeford
                    ... The late Toshiro Mifune was an imposing 5 9, 160 pounds, and regarded as tall for his generation. A 42 short is probably a lot closer to what would fit
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 3, 2009
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                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Captain Zorikh" <zorikh@...> wrote:
                      > One of the guys is shorter than the other, and there is a line about "do you know how hard it is to get this in a 42 short?", so having armor that doesn't fit right would actually be OK.

                      The late Toshiro Mifune was an imposing 5'9, 160 pounds, and regarded as tall for his generation. A "42 short" is probably a lot closer to what would fit the average Japanese samurai than otherwise. Depending on what you end up putting your actors in, you might want to have the joke be about the taller guy having fit problems.

                      Two sen worth,
                      Saionji no Hanae
                      West Kingdom
                    • shinomoto yoshinaga
                         yeah sure spoil everyone s fun with your facts and reality and stuff.     Through the bitter and the sweet. The fray stands firm! ... From: Solveig
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 5, 2009
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                           yeah sure spoil everyone's fun with your facts and reality and stuff.    

                        Through the bitter and the sweet.

                        The fray stands firm!

                        --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

                        From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Need japanese armor for scene in short film
                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 7:32 PM







                         









                        Noble Cousin!



                        Greetings from Solveig! Are you seeking SCA list-legal armor, kendo

                        armor, or museum replica armor?



                        Your Humble Servant

                        Solveig Throndardottir

                        Amateur Scholar

























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • shinomoto yoshinaga
                        maybe you can get this guys armor? Through the bitter and the sweet. The fray stands firm! ... From: wodeford Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Need
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 5, 2009
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                          maybe you can get this guys armor?

                          Through the bitter and the sweet.

                          The fray stands firm!

                          --- On Thu, 12/3/09, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

                          From: wodeford <wodeford@...>
                          Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Need japanese armor for scene in short film
                          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 10:09 PM







                           









                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups .com, "Captain Zorikh" <zorikh@...> wrote:

                          > One of the guys is shorter than the other, and there is a line about "do you know how hard it is to get this in a 42 short?", so having armor that doesn't fit right would actually be OK.



                          The late Toshiro Mifune was an imposing 5'9, 160 pounds, and regarded as tall for his generation. A "42 short" is probably a lot closer to what would fit the average Japanese samurai than otherwise. Depending on what you end up putting your actors in, you might want to have the joke be about the taller guy having fit problems.



                          Two sen worth,

                          Saionji no Hanae

                          West Kingdom

























                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Captain Zorikh
                          Thanks for everyone s input and opinions on the matter of this. Now, is there anyone who can help me get some Japanese-looking armor for the scene? The barest
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 9, 2009
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                            Thanks for everyone's input and opinions on the matter of this. Now, is there anyone who can help me get some Japanese-looking armor for the scene?

                            The barest minimum we can get away with is the kabuto, the do, and the sode. If I can get the kusa-zuri as well, that would be great. All else would be gravy (but good gravy).

                            Anyone? We really want to shoot the scene on Saturday morning, December 19th on a beach near Coney Island (we got a lovely spot all picked out, storyboarded, etc.).

                            This is a very low-budget project, so we can;t afford a high rental fee, but we will spell your name right in the credits, give you a copy of the finished film, invite you to the screenings, and if you are there in person, we would feed you. We are even willing to travel a reasonable distance (a couple of hours from NYC) to pick it up and return it).

                            Anyone? Or should I get a plastic barrel and work off of the patterns on the Yama Kaminari website?

                            Ervald
                          • wodeford
                            ... The reality is that the number of people portraying Japanese in the SCA world-wide is relatively small and most of us are not local to you. There are
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 9, 2009
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                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Captain Zorikh" <zorikh@...> wrote:
                              > Now, is there anyone who can help me get some Japanese-looking armor for the scene?

                              The reality is that the number of people portraying Japanese in the SCA world-wide is relatively small and most of us are not local to you.

                              There are currently about 900 people listed as members of this list, but not all of them are active. There's a lot of overlap onto the Tousando forum, as you may have noticed. Not all of us are fighters, so that reduces the pool as well.

                              If you have not tried contacting the local SCA groups in the East Kingdom directly, that's probably your next step.

                              Good hunting.

                              Saionji no Hanae
                              West Kingdom
                            • JL Badgley
                              ... I would specifically recommend hitting up folks in Yamakaminari, as I believe they are one of the largest groups up your way. How far are you willing to
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 9, 2009
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                                On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:29 AM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
                                > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Captain Zorikh" <zorikh@...> wrote:
                                >> Now, is there anyone who can help me get some Japanese-looking armor for the scene?
                                >
                                > The reality is that the number of people portraying Japanese in the SCA world-wide is relatively small and most of us are not local to you.
                                >
                                > There are currently about 900 people listed as members of this list, but not all of them are active. There's a lot of overlap onto the Tousando forum, as you may have noticed. Not all of us are fighters, so that reduces the pool as well.
                                >
                                > If you have not tried contacting the local SCA groups in the East Kingdom directly, that's probably your next step.

                                I would specifically recommend hitting up folks in Yamakaminari, as I
                                believe they are one of the largest groups up your way. How far are
                                you willing to travel to pick up and drop off any armor that someone
                                might be willing to lend?

                                -Ii
                              • Solveig Throndardottir
                                Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Most or at least Many of the Kaminari folk don t fight so don t have armor. The biggest contingents of Kaminari people
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 10, 2009
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                                  Noble Cousins!

                                  Greetings from Solveig! Most or at least Many of the Kaminari folk
                                  don't fight so don't have armor. The biggest contingents of Kaminari
                                  people are in Buffalo and Pittsburgh neither of which is exactly
                                  close to New York City. One more thing. It takes rather longer to put
                                  together a kit of Japanese armor than it does to put together a kit
                                  of minimally legal SCA armor.

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar
                                • Aaron Grossman
                                   It takes rather longer to put together a kit of Japanese armor than it does to put together a kit of minimally legal SCA armor.With all due respect, Lady
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 10, 2009
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                                     It takes rather longer to put

                                    together a kit of Japanese armor than it does to put together a kit

                                    of minimally legal SCA armor.With all due respect, Lady Solveig, if he's making costume pieces for a student short, and clearly isn't terribly worried about authenticity, he can make a pair of barrel-plastic dou laced with Xs and Train Tracks in under a week. Certainly, anyone here would cringe to see it on the field, or presented as work for consideration in an A&S event, but this is not his goal.
                                    Now, oh energetic OP, getting any level of fullness to the lacing will require quite a bit of dedication, as well as expense for a one-time prop; something that will pass the "student film 15-foot rule" would not be that hard. You will, I'd expect, have to give up the
                                    dream of having kabuto, but fighting bare-headed is a perfectly anime-geek thing to do, and I would not expect it to detract from your intended effect. Please see Master Effingham's page on Odoshi to get a feel for how to lace a dou: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch05.html
                                    Especially pay attention to the section on Sugake Odoshi.

                                    Unfortunately, I am in Boston, and my suit of hon kozane is far from finished, so offering anything more than ideas is out of my ability at present.
                                    Best of luck on your film,Kawaguchi no Ryutaro




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Audrey Bergeron-Morin
                                    ... You might have more succes with LARPers than SCA members, and they might have interesting weapons also. I have absolutely no knowledge of the LARP scene in
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 10, 2009
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                                      >
                                      > I would specifically recommend hitting up folks in Yamakaminari, as I
                                      > believe they are one of the largest groups up your way.



                                      You might have more succes with LARPers than SCA members, and they might
                                      have interesting weapons also. I have absolutely no knowledge of the LARP
                                      scene in your area though...


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Captain Zorikh
                                      HI Folks. After all the advice I got from this and other message boards, I was unable to borrow more than a pair of helmets from Sir Tanaka (SCA) in NJ, so I
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 13, 2010
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                                        HI Folks. After all the advice I got from this and other message boards, I was unable to borrow more than a pair of helmets from Sir Tanaka (SCA) in NJ, so I got a plastic barrel, found some patterns at http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html and http://www.yamakaminari.com/ and recruited help from SCAdians who wanted to build their own Japanese armor. We built a couple of very basic cuirasses with shoulders and with the helmets and judo gis, had exactly the effect we were going for in the movie.

                                        The guys who helped build the armor got to keep it when we were done.

                                        I'll be sure to let you know when we screen it.

                                        Thanks!

                                        Captain Zorikh
                                        http://www.captainzorikh.com
                                      • JL Badgley
                                        Great to hear! I wish we d been able to help you more directly, but I m glad you got stuff working :) -Ii
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 13, 2010
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                                          Great to hear! I wish we'd been able to help you more directly, but
                                          I'm glad you got stuff working :)

                                          -Ii

                                          On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 1:37 AM, Captain Zorikh <zorikh@...> wrote:
                                          > HI Folks. After all the advice I got from this and other message boards, I was unable to borrow more than a pair of helmets from Sir Tanaka (SCA) in NJ, so I got a plastic barrel, found some patterns at http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html and http://www.yamakaminari.com/ and recruited help from SCAdians who wanted to build their own Japanese armor. We built a couple of very basic cuirasses with shoulders and with the helmets and judo gis, had exactly the effect we were going for in the movie.
                                          >
                                          > The guys who helped build the armor got to keep it when we were done.
                                          >
                                          > I'll be sure to let you know when we screen it.
                                          >
                                          > Thanks!
                                          >
                                          > Captain Zorikh
                                          > http://www.captainzorikh.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
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