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Re: [SCA-JML] feasting knife

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  • JL Badgley
    ... Okay, so we just shouldn t eat anything that barbarians who don t know how to cut up food would eat. :) Seriously, though, I think everyone realizes by
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 6, 2009
      On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
      > Noble Cousin!
      >
      > Greetings from Soveig! The problem is of course that Japanese did not
      > use knives to eat at banquets. About the closest that you come is a
      > kind of fruit knife which does have a wooden handle and a wooden
      > sheath. The chef's job was to appropriately cut all of the food items
      > in advance of serving a meal. There are some formal occasions where
      > the chef would cut the food in the presence of the diners. This is
      > described in The Confessions of Lady Nijo.
      >
      > There are also "kuromoji" which are sort of like gigantic toothpicks
      > which are used to eat moist sweets at tea ceremonies.
      >
      > Generally speaking, we have evidence for chopsticks and long handled
      > spoons showing up in pre-modern Japanese place settings.
      >
      Okay, so we just shouldn't eat anything that barbarians who don't know
      how to cut up food would eat. :)

      Seriously, though, I think everyone realizes by now that knives aren't
      something you regularly find at a Japanese table, but we need a way to
      deal with the fact that food isn't always going to be prepared in a
      Japanese manner, and in the same way we use the chairs provided for
      feast, having a knife is a good idea. Best to have it at least look
      like something you grabbed out of the kitchen to deal with these silly
      nanban customs than to have a something completely wrong for your
      persona, right?

      -Ii
    • JL Badgley
      ... Those are definitely a good buy for our purposes. Nice find! -Ii
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 6, 2009
        On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 5:06 AM, rickj <rikjohnson@...> wrote:

        > It's a beautiful blade and being japanese, follows the ancestral pattern.
        > I bought two.

        Those are definitely a good buy for our purposes. Nice find!

        -Ii
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Ii dono! Greetings from Soveig! ... Actually, since the problem occurs at Western feasts, your scenario is an excellent reason to have a blatantly Western
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 6, 2009
          Ii dono!

          Greetings from Soveig!

          > Best to have it at least look
          >>
          > like something you grabbed out of the kitchen to deal with these silly
          > nanban customs than to have a something completely wrong for your
          > persona, right?

          Actually, since the problem occurs at Western feasts, your scenario
          is an excellent reason to have a blatantly Western knife such as a
          rather nice knife made in Sweden (I think it was) that looks sort of
          like a dagger. It's made out of carbon steel, comes in a faux leather
          sheath, and is also a whole lot less expensive than a Japanese
          kitchen knife.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
        • Mori Michimori
          Greetings, Solveig-dono and Ii-dono! ... For those with ~$US50 to spare, there are some very reasonable western European dining and utility knives available
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 6, 2009
            Greetings, Solveig-dono and Ii-dono!

            On Oct 6, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

            > Ii dono!
            >
            > Greetings from Soveig!
            >
            >> Best to have it at least look like something you grabbed out of
            >> the kitchen to deal with these silly nanban customs than to have a
            >> something completely wrong for your persona, right?
            >
            > Actually, since the problem occurs at Western feasts, your scenario
            > is an excellent reason to have a blatantly Western knife such as a
            > rather nice knife made in Sweden (I think it was) that looks sort of
            > like a dagger. It's made out of carbon steel, comes in a faux leather
            > sheath, and is also a whole lot less expensive than a Japanese
            > kitchen knife.
            >

            For those with ~$US50 to spare, there are some very reasonable
            western European dining and utility knives available through
            Revival.US <http://revival.us/index.asp?
            PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=239> (be sure to check the related items
            at the bottom of the page).

            For my part, when Dôshu attends a Western feast, he will borrow a
            knife from the cook in his entourage, preferring a tool of proper
            Japanese construction to some awkward Western blade of no known
            heritage.

            In humble service, as befits a Samurai,

            Dôshu
            --
            Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
          • Rick Johnson
            ... use knives to eat at banquets. Agreed, though I believe that the discussion was about being Japanese in a standard multi-cultural banquet where the food is
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 6, 2009
              >>Greetings from Soveig! The problem is of course that Japanese did not
              use knives to eat at banquets.

              Agreed, though I believe that the discussion was about being Japanese in a standard multi-cultural banquet where the food is generally European.
              In that scene, a knife would be useful.



              Rick Johnson,
              aka RikJohnson39@...
              PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
              http://geocities.com/RikJohnson39
              "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"


              Please note: message attached

              From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] feasting knife
              Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 20:22:27 -0400



              ____________________________________________________________
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            • ErinK
              As an aside, I d always heard that I m not responsible for cutting my own food in Japanese culture, but that doesn t really fit with a lot of the things I ve
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 7, 2009
                As an aside, I'd always heard that I'm not responsible for cutting my own food in Japanese culture, but that doesn't really fit with a lot of the things I've been served at restaurants! ;-)

                I never know whether to rend, bite, or pick....

                ERIN

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                >
                > The chef's job was to appropriately cut all of the food items
                > in advance of serving a meal. There are some formal occasions where
                > the chef would cut the food in the presence of the diners. This is
                > described in The Confessions of Lady Nijo.
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Dôshu dono! Greetings from Solveig! With a name like that, I pretty much expect you to be a vegetarian and in not much need of a knife. Your Humble Servant
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 7, 2009
                  Dôshu dono!

                  Greetings from Solveig! With a name like that, I pretty much expect
                  you to be a vegetarian and in not much need of a knife.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar
                • JL Badgley
                  On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Solveig Throndardottir ... I wonder how well folks like Shingen and Kenshin kept their various vows? -Ii Shōshō
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 7, 2009
                    On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Solveig Throndardottir
                    <nostrand@...> wrote:
                    > Dôshu dono!
                    >
                    > Greetings from Solveig! With a name like that, I pretty much expect
                    > you to be a vegetarian and in not much need of a knife.
                    >
                    :)

                    I wonder how well folks like Shingen and Kenshin kept their various vows?

                    -Ii Shōshō
                  • Mori Michimori
                    Greetings, Solveig-dono! ... Ah! It is clear you have never faced a raging daikon! They get really dangerous when they re cornered. Dôshu -- Mori Daitarô
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 7, 2009
                      Greetings, Solveig-dono!

                      On Oct 7, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

                      > Dôshu dono!
                      >
                      > Greetings from Solveig! With a name like that, I pretty much expect
                      > you to be a vegetarian and in not much need of a knife.
                      >
                      > Your Humble Servant
                      > Solveig Throndardottir
                      > Amateur Scholar
                      >

                      Ah! It is clear you have never faced a raging daikon! They get really
                      dangerous when they're cornered.

                      Dôshu
                      --
                      Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
                    • Mori Michimori
                      This thread set me off to Google search. An early hit was Japan Woodworker. There is
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 7, 2009
                        This thread set me off to Google search.

                        An early hit was Japan Woodworker.

                        <http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?
                        dept_id=13150&s=JapanWoodworker>

                        There is some beautiful stuff here, but judging by the prices on some
                        of the vegetable knives, they must be made by Living National
                        Treasures, using the full ritual!


                        Dôshu Giiku
                        --
                        Mori Daitarô Michimori-shônagon
                      • James Eckman
                        ... Yes, Japan Woodworker in the tradition of Garrett Wade creates some of the finest tool porn ;) They do have stuff sane mortals can purchase though in
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 8, 2009
                          > Posted by: "Mori Michimori"

                          > This thread set me off to Google search. An early hit was Japan
                          > Woodworker. <http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?
                          > dept_id=13150&s=JapanWoodworker> There is some beautiful stuff here,
                          > but judging by the prices on some of the vegetable knives, they must
                          > be made by Living National Treasures, using the full ritual!
                          Yes, Japan Woodworker in the tradition of Garrett Wade creates some of
                          the finest tool porn ;) They do have stuff sane mortals can purchase
                          though in addition to the mystical chisels formed by the soul of the
                          samurai. I like their Ryoba saws with the replaceable blades, great for
                          working in softwoods and the ones that are "blue hard" stay sharp for
                          years. Note that mere mortals cannot sharpen Japanese saws (not a joke),
                          the angles are much more difficult that western saws, so if your not
                          local, buy a spare blade.

                          Jim
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