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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Building a Kamakura Persona

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Saionji hime! Greetings from Solveig! ... As I recall, kyogen tends to fossilize late Muromachi fashions and language while Noh tends to fossilize somewhat
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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      Saionji hime!

      Greetings from Solveig!
      > It won't be in there.
      > www.printsofjapan.com/Image2/Kamishimo_3.jpg shows the Edo period
      > iteration of nagabakama for men. I know I've seen it in kyogen
      > costumes.
      As I recall, kyogen tends to fossilize late Muromachi fashions and
      language while Noh tends to fossilize somewhat earlier fashions and
      speech.
      > Which are not the same thing as nagabakama. This is more on the
      > order of what you're thinking of:
      > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/graphics/garbphotos/
      > bukanSokutai2.jpg
      I fear that I should have written more clearly. I was simply pointing
      out the encumberance of men's clothing of the period. Encumbering
      clothing shouts "I'm wealthy and I don't have to do manual labor".

      As for the Nuikata book. It does have a lot of interesting stuff in
      it. There is at least one bugaku (Heian period dance theatre) costume
      in the thing. As for pants. I really should take a look at the back
      pages of one of my kogojiten which I do have off in my working
      library at the moment.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar
    • wodeford
      ... My mistake - I misremembered a comic kabuki play as kyogen. I m thinking specifically of a piece called Bo Shibari, and the costume is worn by the master
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

        > As I recall, kyogen tends to fossilize late Muromachi fashions and
        > language while Noh tends to fossilize somewhat earlier fashions and
        > speech.

        My mistake - I misremembered a comic kabuki play as kyogen. I'm thinking specifically of a piece called "Bo Shibari," and the costume is worn by the master of two untrustworthy servants.
        http://www.culturaitalia.it/pico/modules/event/it/event_1118.html?print=true

        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdom
      • JL Badgley
        ... I m pretty sure that the Lord in most of those plays wears Edo period garments, but I could be wrong. I *do* think we find nagabakama before the Edo
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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          On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:11 PM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
          >
          >> As I recall, kyogen tends to fossilize late Muromachi fashions and
          >> language while Noh tends to fossilize somewhat earlier fashions and
          >> speech.
          >
          > My mistake - I misremembered a comic kabuki play as kyogen. I'm thinking specifically of a piece called "Bo Shibari," and the costume is worn by the master of two untrustworthy servants.
          > http://www.culturaitalia.it/pico/modules/event/it/event_1118.html?print=true
          >
          I'm pretty sure that the Lord in most of those plays wears Edo period
          garments, but I could be wrong. I *do* think we find nagabakama
          before the Edo period, but I don't know how popular they were (or why
          they would be used--probably to show that the wearer could be
          leisurely, initially, but I'm not sure).

          -Ii
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... Boshibari is a kyogen play. An interesting side note, kabuki scripts are for some reason called kyogenbon . Noh
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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            Noble Cousins!

            Greetings from Solveig!
            > My mistake - I misremembered a comic kabuki play as kyogen. I'm
            > thinking specifically of a piece called "Bo Shibari," and the
            > costume is worn by the master of two untrustworthy servants.
            Boshibari is a kyogen play. An interesting side note, kabuki scripts
            are for some reason called "kyogenbon". Noh scripts are called
            "utaibon". I really should find out what kyogen scripts are called.
            Some time ago, Baron Edward pointed out that the "winged" jacket was
            developed in the sixteenth century and that we have pictures of
            famous people wearing them.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! Nagabakama show up in early wood block print books of kyogen plays. Nagabakama were well enough established at that point to
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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              Ii dono!

              Greetings from Solveig! Nagabakama show up in early wood block print
              books of kyogen plays. Nagabakama were well enough established at
              that point to form part of comic costumes. The fabric patterns of
              kyogen reflect, in my opinion, the aesthetics of the late Muromachi
              period. Kyogen itself dates from at least the time of Ze'ami.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • JL Badgley
              ... Actually, Bo Shibari is both, and possibly an older story. There is a kyogen, but there is also a comic kabuki done to it as well. I wouldn t be
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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                On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                > Greetings from Solveig!
                >> My mistake - I misremembered a comic kabuki play as kyogen. I'm
                >> thinking specifically of a piece called "Bo Shibari," and the
                >> costume is worn by the master of two untrustworthy servants.
                > Boshibari is a kyogen play. An interesting side note, kabuki scripts
                > are for some reason called "kyogenbon". Noh scripts are called
                > "utaibon". I really should find out what kyogen scripts are called.
                > Some time ago, Baron Edward pointed out that the "winged" jacket was
                > developed in the sixteenth century and that we have pictures of
                > famous people wearing them.

                Actually, "Bo Shibari" is both, and possibly an older story. There is
                a kyogen, but there is also a comic kabuki done to it as well. I
                wouldn't be surprised if there was a bunraku play on it as well. It
                isn't as if these stories had any real copyright and had to stay
                within their own genre.

                -Ii
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