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Re: Building a Kamakura Persona

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  • wodeford
    ... It won t be in there. www.printsofjapan.com/Image2/Kamishimo_3.jpg shows the Edo period iteration of nagabakama for men. I know I ve seen it in kyogen
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 30, 2009
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

      > I would have to check my copy of the nuikata book, but I've lent it
      > out again.

      It won't be in there.
      www.printsofjapan.com/Image2/Kamishimo_3.jpg shows the Edo period iteration of nagabakama for men. I know I've seen it in kyogen costumes.

      > Regardless, male nobility were encumbered by these enormously long
      > trains which appear to have been either brocade or painted silk.

      Which are not the same thing as nagabakama. This is more on the order of what you're thinking of:
      http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/graphics/garbphotos/bukanSokutai2.jpg

      Saionji no Hanae
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Saionji hime! Greetings from Solveig! ... As I recall, kyogen tends to fossilize late Muromachi fashions and language while Noh tends to fossilize somewhat
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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        Saionji hime!

        Greetings from Solveig!
        > It won't be in there.
        > www.printsofjapan.com/Image2/Kamishimo_3.jpg shows the Edo period
        > iteration of nagabakama for men. I know I've seen it in kyogen
        > costumes.
        As I recall, kyogen tends to fossilize late Muromachi fashions and
        language while Noh tends to fossilize somewhat earlier fashions and
        speech.
        > Which are not the same thing as nagabakama. This is more on the
        > order of what you're thinking of:
        > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/graphics/garbphotos/
        > bukanSokutai2.jpg
        I fear that I should have written more clearly. I was simply pointing
        out the encumberance of men's clothing of the period. Encumbering
        clothing shouts "I'm wealthy and I don't have to do manual labor".

        As for the Nuikata book. It does have a lot of interesting stuff in
        it. There is at least one bugaku (Heian period dance theatre) costume
        in the thing. As for pants. I really should take a look at the back
        pages of one of my kogojiten which I do have off in my working
        library at the moment.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar
      • wodeford
        ... My mistake - I misremembered a comic kabuki play as kyogen. I m thinking specifically of a piece called Bo Shibari, and the costume is worn by the master
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

          > As I recall, kyogen tends to fossilize late Muromachi fashions and
          > language while Noh tends to fossilize somewhat earlier fashions and
          > speech.

          My mistake - I misremembered a comic kabuki play as kyogen. I'm thinking specifically of a piece called "Bo Shibari," and the costume is worn by the master of two untrustworthy servants.
          http://www.culturaitalia.it/pico/modules/event/it/event_1118.html?print=true

          Saionji no Hanae
          West Kingdom
        • JL Badgley
          ... I m pretty sure that the Lord in most of those plays wears Edo period garments, but I could be wrong. I *do* think we find nagabakama before the Edo
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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            On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:11 PM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
            >
            >> As I recall, kyogen tends to fossilize late Muromachi fashions and
            >> language while Noh tends to fossilize somewhat earlier fashions and
            >> speech.
            >
            > My mistake - I misremembered a comic kabuki play as kyogen. I'm thinking specifically of a piece called "Bo Shibari," and the costume is worn by the master of two untrustworthy servants.
            > http://www.culturaitalia.it/pico/modules/event/it/event_1118.html?print=true
            >
            I'm pretty sure that the Lord in most of those plays wears Edo period
            garments, but I could be wrong. I *do* think we find nagabakama
            before the Edo period, but I don't know how popular they were (or why
            they would be used--probably to show that the wearer could be
            leisurely, initially, but I'm not sure).

            -Ii
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... Boshibari is a kyogen play. An interesting side note, kabuki scripts are for some reason called kyogenbon . Noh
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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              Noble Cousins!

              Greetings from Solveig!
              > My mistake - I misremembered a comic kabuki play as kyogen. I'm
              > thinking specifically of a piece called "Bo Shibari," and the
              > costume is worn by the master of two untrustworthy servants.
              Boshibari is a kyogen play. An interesting side note, kabuki scripts
              are for some reason called "kyogenbon". Noh scripts are called
              "utaibon". I really should find out what kyogen scripts are called.
              Some time ago, Baron Edward pointed out that the "winged" jacket was
              developed in the sixteenth century and that we have pictures of
              famous people wearing them.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! Nagabakama show up in early wood block print books of kyogen plays. Nagabakama were well enough established at that point to
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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                Ii dono!

                Greetings from Solveig! Nagabakama show up in early wood block print
                books of kyogen plays. Nagabakama were well enough established at
                that point to form part of comic costumes. The fabric patterns of
                kyogen reflect, in my opinion, the aesthetics of the late Muromachi
                period. Kyogen itself dates from at least the time of Ze'ami.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
              • JL Badgley
                ... Actually, Bo Shibari is both, and possibly an older story. There is a kyogen, but there is also a comic kabuki done to it as well. I wouldn t be
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 1, 2009
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                  On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                  >> My mistake - I misremembered a comic kabuki play as kyogen. I'm
                  >> thinking specifically of a piece called "Bo Shibari," and the
                  >> costume is worn by the master of two untrustworthy servants.
                  > Boshibari is a kyogen play. An interesting side note, kabuki scripts
                  > are for some reason called "kyogenbon". Noh scripts are called
                  > "utaibon". I really should find out what kyogen scripts are called.
                  > Some time ago, Baron Edward pointed out that the "winged" jacket was
                  > developed in the sixteenth century and that we have pictures of
                  > famous people wearing them.

                  Actually, "Bo Shibari" is both, and possibly an older story. There is
                  a kyogen, but there is also a comic kabuki done to it as well. I
                  wouldn't be surprised if there was a bunraku play on it as well. It
                  isn't as if these stories had any real copyright and had to stay
                  within their own genre.

                  -Ii
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