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Well-traveled Japanese (was: Deep in the Well of Indecision)

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  • JL Badgley
    ... Severing ties has many different meanings. It is useful to note that by the Mongol invasions, the guesthouse for foreigners (Chinese and Koreans) was
    Message 1 of 3 , Sep 30, 2009
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      On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 1:11 AM, Camilla <ruby_eyed_camilla@...> wrote:

      > On a separate level, Can a half-Japanese/half-Chinese girl be accepted in a society that basically severed all ties with China? I'm basing this question with information of Japanese pirates raiding the coast of china.
      >

      "Severing ties" has many different meanings. It is useful to note
      that by the Mongol invasions, the guesthouse for foreigners (Chinese
      and Koreans) was apparently still in operation at Hakata Bay until
      burnt down by the Mongols themselves.

      Kyushu has had a long history of interaction, and I think it was in
      Nagasaki in the 16th century that the Jesuits commented on some 2000
      of the 10,000 inhabitants being of non-European foreign extraction
      (they specifically said Chinese and Korean, but based on trade routes,
      I would be unsurprised to find people from SE Asia there as well).
      Arabs were trading with Gaesong until the Joseon period, at least.

      The first Europeans to India found the Japanese already there. The
      Japanese were also found in Southeast Asia, and not just as "pirates".
      The famous "Anjiro", companion of Francis Xavier in India, was
      apparently of bushi extraction. There were Japanese mercenaries and
      traders throughout Asia. There was also a healthy* slave trade going
      on in Japan that expanded in the 16th century as the Portuguese got
      involved, but there were plenty of ethnicities going back and forth.
      It was mostly just the official communications that were muted during
      these times.

      To put it in a modern context: Look at the US relationship with
      either Cuba or Iran. And yet, would we say that there is no
      interaction between Cuban, Iranian, and US citizens?


      -Ii

      *"Healthy" may be an oxymoron in this instance...
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! You made many good points about Japanese overseas interests. For that matter, as I recall, a Japanese adventurer took over
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 1, 2009
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        Ii dono!

        Greetings from Solveig! You made many good points about Japanese
        overseas interests. For that matter, as I recall, a Japanese
        adventurer took over Thailand (Siam) for a while.

        > There was also a healthy* slave trade going
        > on in Japan that expanded in the 16th century as the Portuguese got
        > involved, but there were plenty of ethnicities going back and forth.
        > It was mostly just the official communications that were muted during
        > these times.

        As I recall, the Portugese take on the slave trade was one of the
        things that got them into trouble in Japan. As I recall, slavery in
        Japan was much more similar to indentured servitude than it was to
        the chattel slavery that evolved in the USA and which the Portugese
        were to some extent already practicing. Basically, it was ok for the
        Portugese to bring non-Japanese slaves in and out of Japan, but the
        government frowned on the Portugese exporting Japanese slaves.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar
      • JL Badgley
        ... 17th century. Didn t really take it over, though he was quite powerful. There were times when the Japanese community held the court more or less hostage
        Message 3 of 3 , Oct 1, 2009
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          On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
          > Ii dono!
          >
          > Greetings from Solveig! You made many good points about Japanese
          > overseas interests. For that matter, as I recall, a Japanese
          > adventurer took over Thailand (Siam) for a while.

          17th century. Didn't really take it over, though he was quite
          powerful. There were times when the Japanese community held the court
          more or less hostage as they made demands, but I wouldn't say they had
          "taken over".

          > As I recall, the Portugese take on the slave trade was one of the
          > things that got them into trouble in Japan. As I recall, slavery in
          > Japan was much more similar to indentured servitude than it was to
          > the chattel slavery that evolved in the USA and which the Portugese
          > were to some extent already practicing. Basically, it was ok for the
          > Portugese to bring non-Japanese slaves in and out of Japan, but the
          > government frowned on the Portugese exporting Japanese slaves.

          That's the impression I get, though the Jesuits talk also of the
          various Korean slaves. The Jesuit notes on the subject seem
          corroborate what you say: The "slaves" in Japan were able to hold
          private jobs beyond their duties, earn their own money, and purchase
          their freedom. Also, apparently the church was advocating their
          release and eventually excommunicated all of those involved in the
          slave trade--though I doubt this stopped it.

          -Ii
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