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Momoyama questions

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  • Michelle
    I beg your patience as I seek more information and clarification. I have scoured the archives both here and on Tousando and looked at numerous references for
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 17, 2009
      I beg your patience as I seek more information and clarification.

      I have scoured the archives both here and on Tousando and looked at numerous references for the Momoyama period and I'm still having trouble figuring out two things: in the Kamakura period women were still wearing red hakama under their kosode. But what were they wearing in that place toward the late Momoyama period (for each class)?

      Secondly, what exactly does the merchant class entail? Did they only sell goods or did they sell services as well? Are the "peddlers" shown on the costume museum website merchants or peasants?

      Thanks,
      Michelle
      (Itsui)
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Iconographic evidence appears to disprove the notion that women uniformly wore red hakama. ... Peasants are by
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 17, 2009
        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > I have scoured the archives both here and on Tousando and looked at
        > numerous references for the Momoyama period and I'm still having
        > trouble figuring out two things: in the Kamakura period women were
        > still wearing red hakama under their kosode. But what were they
        > wearing in that place toward the late Momoyama period (for each
        > class)?

        Iconographic evidence appears to disprove the notion that women
        uniformly wore red hakama.

        > Secondly, what exactly does the merchant class entail? Did they
        > only sell goods or did they sell services as well? Are the
        > "peddlers" shown on the costume museum website merchants or peasants?

        Peasants are by definition primarily in the business of agriculture.
        That does not mean that they would never bring things to market.
        However, a lot of agricultural production was in one way or another
        distributed through a tax and fee system. As I recall, during the
        Muromachi period the samurai would sell their rice to merchants in
        exchange for money with which they bought a variety of goods and
        services.

        The service market might not have been nearly as large as it exists
        today, however there were a fair number of well defined services:

        1. Porters
        2. Messengers
        3. People who operated post-road guest houses.
        4. Entertainers
        5. A variety of medico type people such as masseuses.
        6. Although largely post-period, Japan developed a large system of
        restaurants and other eating establishments.

        and similar activities. However, the nikki (diary) literature and
        monogatari (story) literature of the late Heian and early Kamakura
        periods also depicts great houses employing a fairly large live-in
        staff who performed a variety of services.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar
      • Michelle
        Many thanks for your responses! ... So, what would the layers be on a merchant/artisan woman for casual wear? Would the base layer be a white kosode and white
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 17, 2009
          Many thanks for your responses!


          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

          > Iconographic evidence appears to disprove the notion that women
          > uniformly wore red hakama.

          So, what would the layers be on a merchant/artisan woman for casual wear? Would the base layer be a white kosode and white hakama? It's really hard to tell from the pictures what exactly was under their robes.

          Thanks again,
          Michelle
          (Itsui)
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Well, the base layer for modern kimono is a white wrap skirt and a short sleaved hip or waist length fold over jacket
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 17, 2009
            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > So, what would the layers be on a merchant/artisan woman for casual
            > wear? Would the base layer be a white kosode and white hakama?
            > It's really hard to tell from the pictures what exactly was under
            > their robes.

            Well, the base layer for modern kimono is a white wrap skirt and a
            short sleaved hip or waist length fold over jacket with simple ties
            sewn to the garment. This jacket like garment is typically made from
            either a bast fiber such as linen or hemp or from cotton. There is
            also a poncho like bra replacement made from similar material which
            can be worn under the jacket.

            Basically though, if you can not see hakama in the picture, then I
            would assume that they are not wearing hakama at all.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
          • wodeford
            ... http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/24.htm http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/25.htm are both peasants. They re in relatively short
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 17, 2009
              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Michelle" <michelle_bailey@...> wrote:

              > So, what would the layers be on a merchant/artisan woman for casual wear?

              http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/24.htm
              http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/25.htm
              are both peasants. They're in relatively short kosode, worn over an equally brief undergarment (either a shitagi or another kosode) and in these illustrations, they've got leggings (kyahan) on.

              By the Momoyama period, the scarlet nagabakama have been relegated to the ritual wear of Shinto priestesses (miko) and the most formal occasions in the hothouse environment of the Imperial court. The kosode has gone from undershirt to outerwear by this time.

              Let's look at what some town folks are wearing in this Momoyama period folding screen at the Tokyo National Museum:
              http://www.tnm.go.jp/en/servlet/Con?processId=00&ref=2&Q1=&Q2=&Q3=&Q4=11[34]_____4181_&Q5=&F1=&F2=&pageId=E15&colid=A11090 is the main link so you can explore the various detail shots at your own pace.

              I particularly like this shot of "power shopping." Note there's even a nun in black with a zukin on her head doing her shopping.
              http://www.tnm.go.jp/gallery/search/images/max/C0022485.jpg

              http://www.tnm.go.jp/gallery/search/images/max/C0022475.jpg shows a bunch of young people playing games. The women are wearing kosode with obi tied in the front (you can see small bow knots if you look carefully), and an uchikake (kosode worn open as a coat layer) over it. They all seem to have on a white layer underneath, hinted at when you look at their hems.

              This is a great detail showing a number of women wearing their kosode katsugu-style. (An option to consider if one is ever caught outside without a decent hat and wants some shade!) http://www.tnm.go.jp/gallery/search/images/max/C0022477.jpg

              Here are several women in a detail from "The Maple Viewers"
              http://www.tnm.jp/gallery/search/images/500/C0042444.jpg, again, in layered kosode.

              Saionji no Hanae
              West Kingdom
            • tupan4
              Ah, so we can infer that underwear in late period could be something between the modern version and the earlier hakama-kosode version. Useful information to
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 18, 2009
                Ah, so we can infer that underwear in late period could be something between the modern version and the earlier hakama-kosode version. Useful information to have, Solveig-sensei.

                My instinct, though this is mostly from modern pop culture interpretations, is that a white kosode is sufficient underwear for middle-class women in late period.

                Saionji-sensei - the painting with the ladies shopping is an excellent reference, thank you. Lots of different things in there - though there's a lot left to interpretation. For example, there are two ladies at the right near the bolts of yellow and red checked fabric and they're holding a white garment that almost looks like it could be salwar type pants - have you seen any evidence of underpants? I guess it's more likely a kosode back seam and you just can't see the sleeves....

                And speaking of Saionji's painting references, I have another question about one of the scenes.

                Saionji-sensei posted this detail from the same screen (http://www.tnm go.jp/gallery/ search/images/ max/C0022477. jpg) to show ladies with kosode over their heads. The preponderance of white kosode here makes me think something special's going on - am I just crazy or is this some sort of religious ceremony? The leaders have funny hats too. I know decorated white outer garments are not very unusual, and some of the other pieces in this series show white uniforms, but when people start dressing in white I think it must have some religious meaning. Do I have the wrong idea?

                By the way, I had a good deal of trouble loading the original link to that momoyama screen (looks like Yahoo or some helpful auto-formatter added a bunch of spaces in the url). If you go to the main museum collection you're looking for the piece titled "Genre Scenes of the 12 Months." Click "other photos" to see all the scenes.

                And now that I'm looking, here's another scene that's helpful for underwear: http://www.tnm.go.jp/en/servlet/Con?&pageId=E16&processId=01&col_id=A11090&img_id=C0022469&ref=2&Q1=&Q2=&Q3=&Q4=11[34]_____4181_&Q5=&F1=&F2=
                If that link gets broken, it's the second panel, a scene that looks like farmers in a flooded field carrying great quantities of food (?). The lady in the middle, carrying some sort of wooden bucket on her head and kettle or watering can in her hand, is clearly wearing a white under-skirt. There's no kosode visible on top (though it might be there anyway). The men in straw skirts are just wearing white kosode, which leads me to think that's what she's wearing too.

                I guess paintings can be fun for garb-shopping too.... ;-)

                ERIN

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                >
                > Noble Cousin!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig!
                >
                > > So, what would the layers be on a merchant/artisan woman for casual
                > > wear? Would the base layer be a white kosode and white hakama?
                > > It's really hard to tell from the pictures what exactly was under
                > > their robes.
                >
                > Well, the base layer for modern kimono is a white wrap skirt and a
                > short sleaved hip or waist length fold over jacket with simple ties
                > sewn to the garment. This jacket like garment is typically made from
                > either a bast fiber such as linen or hemp or from cotton. There is
                > also a poncho like bra replacement made from similar material which
                > can be worn under the jacket.
                >
                > Basically though, if you can not see hakama in the picture, then I
                > would assume that they are not wearing hakama at all.
                >
                > Your Humble Servant
                > Solveig Throndardottir
                > Amateur Scholar
                >
              • JL Badgley
                ... Well, white usually indicates purity in Shinto and Death in Buddhism, but I don t think that there is any such meaning here. I think it is just artistic
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 18, 2009
                  On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 9:10 PM, tupan4<tupan4@...> wrote:
                  > Saionji-sensei posted this detail from the same screen (http://www.tnm go.jp/gallery/ search/images/ max/C0022477. jpg) to show ladies with kosode over their heads.  The preponderance of white kosode here makes me think something special's going on - am I just crazy or is this some sort of religious ceremony?  The leaders have funny hats too.  I know decorated white outer garments are not very unusual, and some of the other pieces in this series show white uniforms, but when people start dressing in white I think it must have some religious meaning.  Do I have the wrong idea?

                  Well, white usually indicates purity in Shinto and Death in Buddhism,
                  but I don't think that there is any such meaning here. I think it is
                  just artistic license.

                  As to what those two people have on their heads, I have no clue. I
                  can't tell if they are being humorous or serious.

                  > I guess paintings can be fun for garb-shopping too.... ;-)

                  That's why I advise people to pick up art books--they can have
                  wonderful bits and pieces that you'd never think to find, otherwise!

                  -Ii
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Well, it s called something else, but it is basically the innermost visible garment. ... Underpants are modern in
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 18, 2009
                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > My instinct, though this is mostly from modern pop culture
                    > interpretations, is that a white kosode is sufficient underwear for
                    > middle-class women in late period.

                    Well, it's called something else, but it is basically the innermost
                    visible garment.

                    > Saionji-sensei - the painting with the ladies shopping is an
                    > excellent reference, thank you. Lots of different things in there
                    > - though there's a lot left to interpretation. For example, there
                    > are two ladies at the right near the bolts of yellow and red
                    > checked fabric and they're holding a white garment that almost
                    > looks like it could be salwar type pants - have you seen any
                    > evidence of underpants? I guess it's more likely a kosode back
                    > seam and you just can't see the sleeves....

                    Underpants are modern in Japan. Men used to wear a type of loincloth.

                    > Saionji-sensei posted this detail from the same screen (http://
                    > www.tnm. go.jp/gallery/ search/images/ max/C0022477. jpg) to show
                    > ladies with kosode over their heads. The preponderance of white
                    > kosode here makes me think something special's going on - am I just
                    > crazy or is this some sort of religious ceremony?

                    Unfortunately, you link wasn't working, so I haven't looked at the
                    picture. However, you will commonly see Kyoto women wearing a kosode
                    or a hat over their heads when they were outside. The purpose was to
                    preserve pallor. Pallor is associated with wealth and status in
                    agrarian societies. Kyoto women were particularly famous for their
                    pallor.

                    > The lady in the middle, carrying some sort of wooden bucket on her
                    > head and kettle or watering can in her hand, is clearly wearing a
                    > white under-skirt.

                    A white wrap skirt is the basic lower undergarment for modern kimono.
                    I thought I already mentioned that. Anyway, this sort of garment
                    shows up in a variety of late period picture scrolls. Incidentally,
                    the white scarf like garment worn on the head of the middle woman is
                    commonly worn by actors portraying women in kyogen performances.

                    > There's no kosode visible on top (though it might be there anyway).

                    I believe that the three women who are clearly peasants are only
                    wearing a single kosode. The season is clearly hot. Regardless, you
                    should also note the front apron being worn by each of the women.

                    > The men in straw skirts are just wearing white kosode, which leads
                    > me to think that's what she's wearing too.

                    Well, the men are wearing yet a different garment than what is
                    usually called a kosode. Regardless, I do not believe that the women
                    are wearing more than a single layer above the waist. The painting is
                    pretty explicit. Also, note what the children are wearing. One of
                    them is wearing a very short garment. This is likely to reflect what
                    the men are wearing.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar
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