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Re: [SCA-JML] A disciple of Hotei

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Some sects used tsuuji (shared name elements) just like family lineages did. For example, lots of followers of Nichiren
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 14, 2009
      Noble Cousins!

      Greetings from Solveig! Some sects used tsuuji (shared name elements)
      just like family lineages did. For example, lots of followers of
      Nichiren have 日 (nichi) included in their name in religion. You can
      find similar practices in the arts.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar
    • Albrecht Waldfurster
      Thank you for this teaching, Sensei. If I have learned correctly from the preceding messages, would the name Mori Hoteimichi be a plausible name for a a lay
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 14, 2009
        Thank you for this teaching, Sensei.

        If I have learned correctly from the preceding messages, would the name
        'Mori Hoteimichi' be a plausible name for a a lay brother, or whatever
        is equivalent, of a mountain sect, someone rather like the yamabushi
        (the itinerant mountain priests following a syncretic combination of
        practices from Buddhism, Shintoism, and Taoism) that Ii described earlier?

        Albrecht

        Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
        > Noble Cousins!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig! Some sects used tsuuji (shared name elements)
        > just like family lineages did. For example, lots of followers of
        > Nichiren have 日 (nichi) included in their name in religion. You can
        > find similar practices in the arts.
        >
        > Your Humble Servant
        > Solveig Throndardottir
        > Amateur Scholar
        >

        --
        Freiherr Albrecht Waldfurster
        Meister des Pelikan-Ordens
        Inh., Gasthaus zum Wilder Mann
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GasthausZumWilderMann/>
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... There are still problems with the proposed name. The Hoteimichi mixes native Japanese readings for kanji with
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 14, 2009
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!
          > If I have learned correctly from the preceding messages, would the
          > name
          > 'Mori Hoteimichi' be a plausible name for a a lay brother, or whatever
          > is equivalent, of a mountain sect, someone rather like the yamabushi
          > (the itinerant mountain priests following a syncretic combination of
          > practices from Buddhism, Shintoism, and Taoism) that Ii described
          > earlier?
          There are still problems with the proposed name. The "Hoteimichi"
          mixes native Japanese readings for kanji with Sino-Japanese readings.
          This is generally a problem. From Wikipedia, yes I look at it too, we
          have:

          Budai (Chinese: 布袋; pinyin: bùdài) or Budai Luohan, pronounced
          Hotei in Japanese
          The two kanji are <cloth><bag>.

          If you like to use 道 dō (path) as part of your name, then I suggest
          using it as the first element since we can easily document this use
          from 道元 Dōgen the founder of one of the two Zen schools in Japan.
          Further, use as a second element will tend to confuse people as use
          in this slot is typical of names of different "ways" in Japan such
          as 武道 Budō (the way of the warrior).

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
        • Albrecht Waldfurster
          Greetings and humble thanks, Solveig-sensei! I am neither surprised nor dismayed that [t]here are still problems with the proposed name. As an experienced
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 14, 2009
            Greetings and humble thanks, Solveig-sensei!

            I am neither surprised nor dismayed that "[t]here are still problems
            with the proposed name." As an experienced herald and a complete novice
            at Japanese name formation, I am pleased that things are moving along so
            expeditiously.

            Further comments are interspersed among your remarks.

            Albrecht

            Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
            > Noble Cousin!
            >
            > Greetings from Solveig!
            >
            > There are still problems with the proposed name. The "Hoteimichi"
            > mixes native Japanese readings for kanji with Sino-Japanese readings.
            > This is generally a problem.

            I can imagine it would be. My ignorance was showing. ;)

            > From Wikipedia, yes I look at it too,

            :D [<= Mori Dō--- is amused!]

            > we have:
            >
            > Budai (Chinese: 布袋; pinyin: bùdài) or Budai Luohan, pronounced Hotei
            > in Japanese; The two kanji are <cloth><bag>.
            >
            > If you like to use 道 dō (path) as part of your name, then I suggest
            > using it as the first element since we can easily document this use
            > from 道元 Dōgen the founder of one of the two Zen schools in Japan.
            > Further, use as a second element will tend to confuse people as use
            > in this slot is typical of names of different "ways" in Japan such as
            > 武道 Budō (the way of the warrior).

            That all makes good sense.

            We have now reached "Mori Dō*" as the evolving name, with the second
            element of the second name to be determined. What do you suggest as a
            suitable component to imply detachment from things of the world while
            still living in the world? Is there an iconic creature or allusion that
            would serve?

            In passing, though I don't think it will make much difference, this
            persona will exist in the last quarter of the 15th C., by European
            reckoning (circa 1485). It would probably be to my advantage to know
            from which mountains he as come down, too. ;)

            Again, I extend my humble thanks.

            --
            Freiherr Albrecht Waldfurster
            Meister des Pelikan-Ordens
            Inh., Gasthaus zum Wilder Mann
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GasthausZumWilderMann/>
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Well, there is 無 MU (nothingness) or 法 HŌ (law), but I am not guaranteeing that either of these will work with
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 14, 2009
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!
              > What do you suggest as a suitable component to imply detachment
              > from things of the world while still living in the world? Is there an
              > iconic creature or allusion that would serve?
              Well, there is 無 MU (nothingness) or 法 HŌ (law), but I am not
              guaranteeing that either of these will work with 道 DŌ (path).

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • Anthony Bryant
              ... Something we used to joke about in Classical Chinese class at IU was the interesting ways that language changed, and the effects the changes could have on
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 16, 2009
                On Aug 14, 2009, at 4:08 AM, Albrecht Waldfurster wrote:

                > I acquired my first Taoist text,
                > the Modern Library version of the writings of Lao Tze with
                > commentaries,
                > sometime in the late 1960s. I see its observations reflected in
                > everything from Buddhism to modern American Protestantism to Steven
                > Covey's "7 Habits...". For the purposes of creating an SCA alternate
                > persona, a lay Buddhist, with strong Taoist influences and a cultural
                > grounding in Shinto, will suffice for me and is probably a LOT deeper
                > than most folk will _ever_ dig.
                >

                Something we used to joke about in Classical Chinese class at IU was
                the interesting ways that language changed, and the effects the
                changes could have on textual understanding when people aren't aware
                of the shift.

                The famous opening line, "Dao ke dao, fei chang dao ye" (translated
                generally as "The dao that can be expressed is not the proper dao" --
                but it really is "the dao that can be dao'ed is not the proper dao").

                At any rate, the "fei" is a negative marker, and "chang" is "normal,
                proper, typical"; in MODERN Chinese, "feichang" is one word, and means
                "extraordinary" or "very" (think: it's "NOT the normal"). So in
                CLASSIC Chinese, "fei chang dao" is "not the proper dao" but in MODERN
                it's "feichang dao" which is "outstanding dao."

                Completely reverses the meaning of the sentence. ;)

                I think Laozi would be amused.

                (Okay, I'm a language geek. Sorry.)

                > .> If you want to take a religious name with elements of daoism or
                > > Hotei, then you could likely use the character "do" in your name.
                >
                > In what way?
                >

                Remember Yamamoto Kansuke? His Buddhist name was Dôki ("way" +
                "devil"). One of the seven kenshi in Nansô Satomi Hakkenden was
                Dôsetsu (+ "season"). Other names that come to mind are Dôgen, Dôkyô,
                and the WWI-period name Dôboi. (Okay, I made that one up.)
                >
                >
                > > For a non-religious name you could use "michi", which is the other
                > > Japanese reading of the same character (pronounced Tao in Chinese).
                >
                > Would that then be 'Morimichi' as a clan name (plus some sort of
                > personal name), or 'Mori Michi*' or 'Mori *michi', or some other
                > construct? In the latter two cases, what is the expected mechanism for
                > selecting the necessary additional syllable?
                >

                Things like Michinaga. These would be given names. Surnames are
                surnames (and while they could and did change, it was usually the
                GIVEN name that carried the "oooh, meaningful!" aspect.
                >
                >
                > > If any of this sounds intriguing and the type of path you want to go
                > > down, please say so and I'll try to dig up more info.
                >
                > Having read and consider your extensive response, my idea is to be a
                > lay
                > brother, or whatever is equivalent, of a mountain sect. Where do I go
                > from here?
                >

                You might want to look into shugenja, then, and shugendô. Very much
                into that hermetic, mountain ascetic type thing.


                Effingham
              • Albrecht Waldfurster
                ... [...snip...] ... I am minded of an anecdote about King James response to his new Bible. There were a number of adjectives he used to describe The Book,
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 17, 2009
                  Effingham-sensei wrote:
                  > On Aug 14, 2009, at 4:08 AM, Albrecht Waldfurster wrote:
                  >
                  >> I acquired my first Taoist text, the Modern Library version of the
                  >> writings of Lao Tze with commentaries, sometime in the late 1960s.
                  [...snip...]
                  >
                  > Something we used to joke about in Classical Chinese class at IU was
                  > the interesting ways that language changed, and the effects the
                  > changes could have on textual understanding when people aren't aware
                  > of the shift.
                  >
                  > The famous opening line, "Dao ke dao, fei chang dao ye" (translated
                  > generally as "The dao that can be expressed is not the proper dao" --
                  > but it really is "the dao that can be dao'ed is not the proper dao").
                  >
                  > At any rate, the "fei" is a negative marker, and "chang" is "normal,
                  > proper, typical"; in MODERN Chinese, "feichang" is one word, and
                  > means "extraordinary" or "very" (think: it's "NOT the normal"). So in
                  > CLASSIC Chinese, "fei chang dao" is "not the proper dao" but in
                  > MODERN it's "feichang dao" which is "outstanding dao."
                  >
                  > Completely reverses the meaning of the sentence. ;)

                  I am minded of an anecdote about King James' response to his new Bible.
                  There were a number of adjectives he used to describe The Book, all of
                  which have reversed their meaning since the early 17th C. The only pair
                  I can recall are awful(KJ)/awesome(modern). Wish I could locate that
                  little tale again.

                  > I think Laozi would be amused.

                  The Old Boy would be marvelously entertained.

                  > (Okay, I'm a language geek. Sorry.)

                  Apology not needed. I'm a language geek, too, but my language of choice
                  for geekyness is technical American English (I'm a process engineer and
                  technical author by trade). I do some German, but it's been mummble...
                  mmm... years since I lived and worked in Germany.

                  >>> If you want to take a religious name with elements of daoism or
                  >>> Hotei, then you could likely use the character "do" in your name.
                  >>
                  >> In what way?
                  >
                  > Remember Yamamoto Kansuke? His Buddhist name was Dôki ("way" +
                  > "devil"). One of the seven kenshi in Nansô Satomi Hakkenden was
                  > Dôsetsu (+ "season"). Other names that come to mind are Dôgen, Dôkyô,
                  > and the WWI-period name Dôboi. (Okay, I made that one up.)
                  [...snip...]

                  On the SCAHRLDS list we have an ongoing admonishment to not be actively
                  imbibing (pop, coffee, beer, single-malt) while reading new messages.
                  Saves a bunch on replacement keyboards. I think I am going to have to
                  apply that admonishment when reading your response! :)

                  Mori/Mōri Dôgeeko
                  --
                  Freiherr Albrecht Waldfurster
                  Meister des Pelikan-Ordens
                  Inh., Gasthaus zum Wilder Mann
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GasthausZumWilderMann/>
                • Sonny Scott
                  [..snip..] ... [...snip...] Is that pronounced doobie?
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 17, 2009
                    [..snip..]
                    > and the WWI-period name Dôboi. (Okay, I made that one up.)
                    [...snip...]

                    Is that pronounced doobie?
                  • Albrecht Waldfurster
                    ... No, doughboy, as in the term for American soldiers in WW-I. Mori Dôgeeko -- Freiherr Albrecht Waldfurster Meister des Pelikan-Ordens Inh., Gasthaus zum
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 17, 2009
                      Sonny Scott wrote:
                      > [..snip..]
                      >> and the WWI-period name Dôboi. (Okay, I made that one up.)
                      > [...snip...]
                      >
                      > Is that pronounced doobie?

                      No, doughboy, as in the term for American soldiers in WW-I.

                      Mori Dôgeeko
                      --
                      Freiherr Albrecht Waldfurster
                      Meister des Pelikan-Ordens
                      Inh., Gasthaus zum Wilder Mann
                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GasthausZumWilderMann/>
                    • Anthony Bryant
                      ... Christopher Wren, on St. Paul s Cathedral. It is awful, artificial, and pompous. ... For the win! :) Effingham
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 17, 2009
                        On Aug 17, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Albrecht Waldfurster wrote:

                        > I am minded of an anecdote about King James' response to his new
                        > Bible.
                        > There were a number of adjectives he used to describe The Book, all of
                        > which have reversed their meaning since the early 17th C. The only
                        > pair
                        > I can recall are awful(KJ)/awesome(modern). Wish I could locate that
                        > little tale again.
                        >
                        Christopher Wren, on St. Paul's Cathedral.

                        "It is awful, artificial, and pompous."
                        >
                        > > Remember Yamamoto Kansuke? His Buddhist name was Dôki ("way" +
                        > > "devil"). One of the seven kenshi in Nansô Satomi Hakkenden was
                        > > Dôsetsu (+ "season"). Other names that come to mind are Dôgen,
                        > Dôkyô,
                        > > and the WWI-period name Dôboi. (Okay, I made that one up.)
                        > [...snip...]
                        >
                        > On the SCAHRLDS list we have an ongoing admonishment to not be
                        > actively
                        > imbibing (pop, coffee, beer, single-malt) while reading new messages.
                        > Saves a bunch on replacement keyboards. I think I am going to have to
                        > apply that admonishment when reading your response! :)
                        >
                        >

                        :)

                        > Mori/Mōri Dôgeeko
                        >

                        For the win! :)



                        Effingham
                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Sorry to hear that you went to an eviscerated K-12 system. The reference is to the Doh Boys (US Soldiers) of WW-I.
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 17, 2009
                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig!
                          > [..snip..]
                          >> and the WWI-period name Dôboi. (Okay, I made that one up.)
                          > [...snip...]
                          >
                          > Is that pronounced doobie?
                          Sorry to hear that you went to an eviscerated K-12 system. The
                          reference is to the Doh Boys (US Soldiers) of WW-I.
                          Doe as John or Jane Doe. Is another way to get the pronunciation across.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar
                        • Albrecht Waldfurster
                          ... That s the one! Obviously time for me to get my memory checked. [...snip...] ... Hmmm... now what s the kanji for laughing geek ? ;) Mori Dôgeeko --
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 17, 2009
                            Effingham-sensei wrote:
                            > On Aug 17, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Albrecht Waldfurster wrote:
                            >
                            >> I am minded of an anecdote about King James' response to his new
                            >> Bible. There were a number of adjectives he used to describe The
                            >> Book, all of which have reversed their meaning since the early 17th
                            >> C. The only pair I can recall are awful(KJ)/awesome(modern). Wish
                            >> I could locate that little tale again.
                            >
                            > Christopher Wren, on St. Paul's Cathedral.
                            >
                            > "It is awful, artificial, and pompous."

                            That's the one! Obviously time for me to get my memory checked.

                            [...snip...]
                            >
                            >> Mori/Mōri Dôgeeko
                            >
                            > For the win! :)
                            >
                            > Effingham

                            Hmmm... now what's the kanji for 'laughing geek'? ;)

                            Mori Dôgeeko
                            --
                            Freiherr Albrecht Waldfurster
                            Meister des Pelikan-Ordens
                            Inh., Gasthaus zum Wilder Mann
                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GasthausZumWilderMann/>
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