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Re: [SCA-JML] New to group

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  • Albrecht Waldfurster
    Good milady, Thank you for providing a couple of hours of engaging conversation with my fellow heralds in the College of Arms. I have a couple of questions,
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 10, 2009
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      Good milady,

      Thank you for providing a couple of hours of engaging conversation with
      my fellow heralds in the College of Arms. I have a couple of questions,
      which I will insert into your message.

      Woodwose

      majora120690@... wrote:
      > Thank you very much for the fast reply and advise. They have found no
      > problem with my device.

      Who are 'they'? Your local herald? A consulting table at a large event?
      An official reply from the Trimarian College of Heralds? The resources
      and experience available at each level will affect how comprehensive
      your information is.

      > it is mountains over a fan with a paw print in the middle. I would
      > like to keep my name as close to my device description as possible.

      Unfortunately, this description of your proposed device (which I assume
      you plan to use in the form of a mon) leaves me confused as to its exact
      appearance. By chance do you have the blazon, as prepared by your
      consulting herald, that you could post as an email, or an electronic
      image you could post, temporarily, to the Files section here?

      > I thought that Japanese prior to the 1600's , women were named for
      > objects or elements and that most womens names were not documented. I
      > may have been given the wrong information.

      I am not a Japanese names expert, but I would suggest you start by
      exploring the Files section here for directly-available documents and
      the Links section for out-of-group references. If that doesn't work, try
      using Google to search for 'Japanese Names SCA' -- I know from
      experience, in helping my son, that this will produce a broad spectrum
      of places to explore.

      > Since my device has mountains and the tiger or cat paw on it I would
      > like to keep my name revolving around the device since it will pass.
      >
      Linking your name and device in that fashion is a very good idea.
      Heraldically, we call that 'canting arms' and it has a very long
      tradition in European armory.

      I _am_ concerned about your confidence that the device _will_ pass.
      There is much that can happen between now (is it officially in the
      pipeline to the Laurel Sovereign of Arms? no, because it can't be
      submitted without a registered name or an associated in-process name)
      and the Laurel meeting where its registration is finally decided. I am
      NOT saying that your proposed device will not pass as it is, only that
      you must be prepared for some unforeseen event require that the device
      be changed.

      In particular, I will point out that the use of a pawprint is what we
      (the SCA College of Arms) call one Step From Period Practice (SFPP).
      This, in and of itself, is not cause to return the device. But if you
      were to depict the mountain in a form that was not known or used in
      period, that _would_ be another SFPP and sufficient grounds to return
      the device for reconsideration. This is why it is so important for me,
      or anyone else wishing to advise you, to see the proposed blazon and
      your intended graphical representation.

      Does this make sense to you?

      I hope that you will understand that I am describing these issues, not
      to discourage you, but to educate you about possible problems so that
      _we_ can avoid them.

      As for the naming issues, there are many others on this list who can
      help you far more than I can. I trust they will chime in as the evening
      progresses in their time zones.

      > Does anyone have any name suggestions? Again I am grateful for all of
      > your help.
      >
      [...snip...]

      --
      Freiherr Albrecht Waldfurster
      Meister des Pelikan-Ordens
      Inh., Gasthaus zum Wilder Mann
      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GasthausZumWilderMann/>
    • tupan4
      The problem is that there isn t much evidence of women (or anyone, if I recall correctly) being named after animals in pre-Edo Japan. Japanese names of the
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 11, 2009
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        The problem is that there isn't much evidence of women (or anyone, if I recall correctly) being named after animals in pre-Edo Japan.

        Japanese names of the type you're after are more frequently based on esoteric qualities (grace, health, generosity, strength). Less common, but still there, are personal names based on plants (especially for women) and geographic features (though it's more frequently mundane things like rice paddies and well frames than awesome stuff like mountains).

        If you're stuck on the lynx thing and still want your name to be registered, you might want to drop that part from your official name and use it as a nickname. That doesn't mean it's correct, but how serious you want to be is really up to you!

        ERIN

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, majora120690@... wrote:

        > I thought that Japanese? prior to the 1600's , women were named for objects or elements? and that most womens names were not documented.? I may have been given the wrong information.? Since my device has mountains and the tiger or cat paw on it I would like to keep my name revolving around the device since it will pass.? Does anyone have any name suggestions?? Again I am grateful for all of your help.
        >
      • majora120690@aol.com
        Thank everyone for the good advise and information. I will research some names and just do a known as for Yamaneko. ... From: tupan4 To:
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 11, 2009
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          Thank everyone for the good advise and information. I will research some names and just do a known as for Yamaneko.


          -----Original Message-----
          From: tupan4 <tupan4@...>
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:59 pm
          Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: New to group






          The problem is that there isn't much evidence of women (or anyone, if I recall correctly) being named after animals in pre-Edo Japan.

          Japanese names of the type you're after are more frequently based on esoteric qualities (grace, health, generosity, strength). Less common, but still there, are personal names based on plants (especially for women) and geographic features (though it's more frequently mundane things like rice paddies and well frames than awesome stuff like mountains).

          If you're stuck on the lynx thing and still want your name to be registered, you might want to drop that part from your official name and use it as a nickname. That doesn't mean it's correct, but how serious you want to be is really up to you!

          ERIN

          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, majora120690@... wrote:

          > I thought that Japanese? prior to the 1600's , women were named for objects or elements? and that most womens names were not documented.? I may have been given the wrong information.? Since my device has mountains and the tiger or cat paw on it I would like to keep my name revolving around the device since it will pass.? Does anyone have any name suggestions?? Again I am grateful for all of your help.
          >








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • JL Badgley
          ... Well... You can t do lynx , partly for the reasons pointed out and partly because I m pretty sure the lynx was not extant in Japan, so the word is likely
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 11, 2009
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            On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 11:38 PM, <majora120690@...> wrote:
            > Thank everyone for the good advise and information. I will research some names and just do a known as for Yamaneko.
            >
            Well...

            You can't do "lynx", partly for the reasons pointed out and partly
            because I'm pretty sure the lynx was not extant in Japan, so the word
            is likely modern. However, there may be something that you can do (as
            I thought I mentioned on Tousando):

            Yama = Mountain
            Ne = Root
            Ko = Child

            -neko is a known suffix for at least the Nara period. I just don't
            know if it was ever a non-imperial suffix, though you could probably
            make the case. Yamaneko could potentially be a usable name if you
            could also document "Yama" in women's names. I know that
            Yamanouchi-dono tried "Ya-Ma-" as an alternative, though the
            construction looks odd (I don't know if that was an actual name or
            not).

            So it isn't that you have to throw out the name, but that you have to
            decide what is important about it.

            Another thing: You would probably be known by your family name moreso
            than your given name in most circumstances, so that would seem, by
            far, to be more important.


            -Ii
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from solveig! ... For most of time, most humans had undocumented names. That is, their names do not appear on birth certificates,
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 12, 2009
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from solveig!

              > I thought that Japanese? prior to the 1600's , women were named for
              > objects or elements? and that most womens names were not
              > documented.? I may have been given the wrong information.? Since my
              > device has mountains and the tiger or cat paw on it I would like to
              > keep my name revolving around the device since it will pass.? Does
              > anyone have any name suggestions?? Again I am grateful for all of
              > your help.

              For most of time, most humans had undocumented names. That is, their
              names do not appear on birth certificates, census rolls, and that
              sort of thing. However, we do have a fairly extensive corpus
              available about premodern Japanese feminine names. If you read
              Japanese, I recommend consulting:

              角田 文衞. 日本の女性名―歴史的展望. Tokyo, 国書刊
              行会, 2006.
              ISBN: 4336047456

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
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