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Re: [SCA-JML] New to group

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  • Albrecht Waldfurster
    Good milady, I am not an expert on Japanese names or culture, nor do I play one on the tourney field. But I am a long-time herald and I did notice one issue
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 10, 2009
      Good milady,

      I am not an expert on Japanese names or culture, nor do I play one on
      the tourney field. But I am a long-time herald and I did notice one
      issue with your request that you will need to address.

      The time period of the SCA is pre-17th century, that is, prior to 1600.
      Names to be registered with the College of Arms must be consistent with
      naming practices for the specified culture (or cultures), prior to
      _1600_. In the case of Japanese names, that would mean, basically,
      before the Edo (or Tokugawa) period, which began in 1603.

      I wish you best success in your search for a name,

      Woodwose

      Janet wrote:
      > Greetings:
      >
      > My name is HL Uesugi Yamaneko. I live in Trimaris and am the
      > Seneschal of the Shire of Amurgorod. I am a heavy weapons fighter
      > and combat archer and sometimes do equestrian. Both my son and I
      > both love anything and all things japanese. I came across your yahoo
      > group and could not wait to join to be able to talk with other SCA
      > Japanese personas.
      >
      > I am trying to document my given name of Yamaneko. (mountain cat) I
      > have passed the Yama part but am having a time finding any pre 1700
      > reference names with the ending neko.
      >
      > If anyone can help me it would be greatly appreciated.
      >

      --
      Freiherr Albrecht Waldfurster
      Meister des Pelikan-Ordens
      Inh., Gasthaus zum Wilder Mann
      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GasthausZumWilderMann/>
    • majora120690@aol.com
      Thank you very much for the fast reply and advise.? They have found no problem with my device. it is mountains over a fan with a paw print in the middle.? I
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 10, 2009
        Thank you very much for the fast reply and advise.? They have found no problem with my device. it is mountains over a fan with a paw print in the middle.? I would like to keep my? name as close to my device description as possible.??

        I thought that Japanese? prior to the 1600's , women were named for objects or elements? and that most womens names were not documented.? I may have been given the wrong information.? Since my device has mountains and the tiger or cat paw on it I would like to keep my name revolving around the device since it will pass.? Does anyone have any name suggestions?? Again I am grateful for all of your help.

        I believe Mr. Bryant you may know a couple friends of mine, Countess Carmenetta and Steve and Kim Bloom?
      • Albrecht Waldfurster
        Good milady, Thank you for providing a couple of hours of engaging conversation with my fellow heralds in the College of Arms. I have a couple of questions,
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 10, 2009
          Good milady,

          Thank you for providing a couple of hours of engaging conversation with
          my fellow heralds in the College of Arms. I have a couple of questions,
          which I will insert into your message.

          Woodwose

          majora120690@... wrote:
          > Thank you very much for the fast reply and advise. They have found no
          > problem with my device.

          Who are 'they'? Your local herald? A consulting table at a large event?
          An official reply from the Trimarian College of Heralds? The resources
          and experience available at each level will affect how comprehensive
          your information is.

          > it is mountains over a fan with a paw print in the middle. I would
          > like to keep my name as close to my device description as possible.

          Unfortunately, this description of your proposed device (which I assume
          you plan to use in the form of a mon) leaves me confused as to its exact
          appearance. By chance do you have the blazon, as prepared by your
          consulting herald, that you could post as an email, or an electronic
          image you could post, temporarily, to the Files section here?

          > I thought that Japanese prior to the 1600's , women were named for
          > objects or elements and that most womens names were not documented. I
          > may have been given the wrong information.

          I am not a Japanese names expert, but I would suggest you start by
          exploring the Files section here for directly-available documents and
          the Links section for out-of-group references. If that doesn't work, try
          using Google to search for 'Japanese Names SCA' -- I know from
          experience, in helping my son, that this will produce a broad spectrum
          of places to explore.

          > Since my device has mountains and the tiger or cat paw on it I would
          > like to keep my name revolving around the device since it will pass.
          >
          Linking your name and device in that fashion is a very good idea.
          Heraldically, we call that 'canting arms' and it has a very long
          tradition in European armory.

          I _am_ concerned about your confidence that the device _will_ pass.
          There is much that can happen between now (is it officially in the
          pipeline to the Laurel Sovereign of Arms? no, because it can't be
          submitted without a registered name or an associated in-process name)
          and the Laurel meeting where its registration is finally decided. I am
          NOT saying that your proposed device will not pass as it is, only that
          you must be prepared for some unforeseen event require that the device
          be changed.

          In particular, I will point out that the use of a pawprint is what we
          (the SCA College of Arms) call one Step From Period Practice (SFPP).
          This, in and of itself, is not cause to return the device. But if you
          were to depict the mountain in a form that was not known or used in
          period, that _would_ be another SFPP and sufficient grounds to return
          the device for reconsideration. This is why it is so important for me,
          or anyone else wishing to advise you, to see the proposed blazon and
          your intended graphical representation.

          Does this make sense to you?

          I hope that you will understand that I am describing these issues, not
          to discourage you, but to educate you about possible problems so that
          _we_ can avoid them.

          As for the naming issues, there are many others on this list who can
          help you far more than I can. I trust they will chime in as the evening
          progresses in their time zones.

          > Does anyone have any name suggestions? Again I am grateful for all of
          > your help.
          >
          [...snip...]

          --
          Freiherr Albrecht Waldfurster
          Meister des Pelikan-Ordens
          Inh., Gasthaus zum Wilder Mann
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GasthausZumWilderMann/>
        • tupan4
          The problem is that there isn t much evidence of women (or anyone, if I recall correctly) being named after animals in pre-Edo Japan. Japanese names of the
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 11, 2009
            The problem is that there isn't much evidence of women (or anyone, if I recall correctly) being named after animals in pre-Edo Japan.

            Japanese names of the type you're after are more frequently based on esoteric qualities (grace, health, generosity, strength). Less common, but still there, are personal names based on plants (especially for women) and geographic features (though it's more frequently mundane things like rice paddies and well frames than awesome stuff like mountains).

            If you're stuck on the lynx thing and still want your name to be registered, you might want to drop that part from your official name and use it as a nickname. That doesn't mean it's correct, but how serious you want to be is really up to you!

            ERIN

            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, majora120690@... wrote:

            > I thought that Japanese? prior to the 1600's , women were named for objects or elements? and that most womens names were not documented.? I may have been given the wrong information.? Since my device has mountains and the tiger or cat paw on it I would like to keep my name revolving around the device since it will pass.? Does anyone have any name suggestions?? Again I am grateful for all of your help.
            >
          • majora120690@aol.com
            Thank everyone for the good advise and information. I will research some names and just do a known as for Yamaneko. ... From: tupan4 To:
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 11, 2009
              Thank everyone for the good advise and information. I will research some names and just do a known as for Yamaneko.


              -----Original Message-----
              From: tupan4 <tupan4@...>
              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:59 pm
              Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: New to group






              The problem is that there isn't much evidence of women (or anyone, if I recall correctly) being named after animals in pre-Edo Japan.

              Japanese names of the type you're after are more frequently based on esoteric qualities (grace, health, generosity, strength). Less common, but still there, are personal names based on plants (especially for women) and geographic features (though it's more frequently mundane things like rice paddies and well frames than awesome stuff like mountains).

              If you're stuck on the lynx thing and still want your name to be registered, you might want to drop that part from your official name and use it as a nickname. That doesn't mean it's correct, but how serious you want to be is really up to you!

              ERIN

              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, majora120690@... wrote:

              > I thought that Japanese? prior to the 1600's , women were named for objects or elements? and that most womens names were not documented.? I may have been given the wrong information.? Since my device has mountains and the tiger or cat paw on it I would like to keep my name revolving around the device since it will pass.? Does anyone have any name suggestions?? Again I am grateful for all of your help.
              >








              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • JL Badgley
              ... Well... You can t do lynx , partly for the reasons pointed out and partly because I m pretty sure the lynx was not extant in Japan, so the word is likely
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 11, 2009
                On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 11:38 PM, <majora120690@...> wrote:
                > Thank everyone for the good advise and information. I will research some names and just do a known as for Yamaneko.
                >
                Well...

                You can't do "lynx", partly for the reasons pointed out and partly
                because I'm pretty sure the lynx was not extant in Japan, so the word
                is likely modern. However, there may be something that you can do (as
                I thought I mentioned on Tousando):

                Yama = Mountain
                Ne = Root
                Ko = Child

                -neko is a known suffix for at least the Nara period. I just don't
                know if it was ever a non-imperial suffix, though you could probably
                make the case. Yamaneko could potentially be a usable name if you
                could also document "Yama" in women's names. I know that
                Yamanouchi-dono tried "Ya-Ma-" as an alternative, though the
                construction looks odd (I don't know if that was an actual name or
                not).

                So it isn't that you have to throw out the name, but that you have to
                decide what is important about it.

                Another thing: You would probably be known by your family name moreso
                than your given name in most circumstances, so that would seem, by
                far, to be more important.


                -Ii
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from solveig! ... For most of time, most humans had undocumented names. That is, their names do not appear on birth certificates,
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 12, 2009
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from solveig!

                  > I thought that Japanese? prior to the 1600's , women were named for
                  > objects or elements? and that most womens names were not
                  > documented.? I may have been given the wrong information.? Since my
                  > device has mountains and the tiger or cat paw on it I would like to
                  > keep my name revolving around the device since it will pass.? Does
                  > anyone have any name suggestions?? Again I am grateful for all of
                  > your help.

                  For most of time, most humans had undocumented names. That is, their
                  names do not appear on birth certificates, census rolls, and that
                  sort of thing. However, we do have a fairly extensive corpus
                  available about premodern Japanese feminine names. If you read
                  Japanese, I recommend consulting:

                  角田 文衞. 日本の女性名―歴史的展望. Tokyo, 国書刊
                  行会, 2006.
                  ISBN: 4336047456

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar
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