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[SCA-JML] Re: Household name.

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  • BamboOni@aol.com
    In a message dated 9/19/99 5:33:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... I am not an expert either. But I think it sounds good Oni
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 19, 1999
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      In a message dated 9/19/99 5:33:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      yumitori@... writes:

      > It seems to me that "Tsurutani" (crane
      > valley) should be acceptable,

      I am not an expert either. But I think it sounds good

      Oni
    • Bruce Mills
      ... Is there some special reason why you ve chosen the name? I think that that has more bearing on things than a strict adherence to naming practices . ...
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 19, 1999
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        On Sun, 19 Sep 1999, Ron Martino wrote:

        > I'm trying to choose a formal name for my clan, so that we can stop
        > being 'Yumitori's household'. It seems to me that "Tsurutani" (crane
        > valley) should be acceptable, since it follows what I know of naming
        > practices. I am not, however, any sort of expert on the subject, and
        > would like to hear opinions from those of you who are.

        Is there some special reason why you've chosen the name? I think that that
        has more bearing on things than a strict adherence to "naming practices".

        > Whatcha think?

        Sounds good.

        Akimoya
        Writing from his domicile "Kinkikuji"
        At his shoen "Yamatorii"
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Sounds perfectly fine to me... Effingham
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 19, 1999
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          Ron Martino wrote:
          >
          > I'm trying to choose a formal name for my clan, so that we can stop
          > being 'Yumitori's household'. It seems to me that "Tsurutani" (crane
          > valley) should be acceptable, since it follows what I know of naming
          > practices. I am not, however, any sort of expert on the subject, and
          > would like to hear opinions from those of you who are.


          Sounds perfectly fine to me...

          Effingham
        • Ron Martino
          ... The crane portion is the important part - I, am most of the rest of the household, are intimately involved in the Barony of Sentinels Keep. As
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 19, 1999
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            > Is there some special reason why you've chosen the name? I think that that
            > has more bearing on things than a strict adherence to "naming practices".

            > Akimoya

            The 'crane' portion is the important part - I, am most of the rest of
            the household, are intimately involved in the Barony of Sentinels' Keep.
            As appropriate for our name, the group's device has a crane in its
            vigilance, so I'm using the japanese version of a crane for our mon.

            Putting this into a geographic form would mean something like 'crane
            mountain', 'crane river', or the like. Of the likely options, I prefer
            Tsurutani...

            Yumitori
          • nostrand@acm.org
            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Alas! Crane-Valley just does not sound all that likely to me. Tsuru has been used in forming feminine given names. eg.
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 21, 1999
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              Noble Cousins!

              Greetings from Solveig! Alas! Crane-Valley just does not sound
              all that likely to me.

              Tsuru has been used in forming feminine given names.

              eg. Tsuru (ca 1332) Tsurukome (ca 1332) Tsurume (ca 1392)

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Thronardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • Barbara Nostrand
              Baron Edward! You are looking at Japanese place names. While a lot of Japanese family names are toponymic, this does not mean that all Japanese place names are
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 21, 1999
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                Baron Edward!

                You are looking at Japanese place names. While a lot of Japanese
                family names are toponymic, this does not mean that all Japanese
                place names are going to appear as Japanese family names. Clan
                names are even more of a problem as we need to decide what we
                mean by a "clan". I am assuming that the original poster wants
                a "han" from the Sengoku period in which case they were generally
                (last I heard at least) family names.

                Now for your examples: Tsurugaoka, Tsuruzaki, Tsuruhara, Tsuruta,
                and Tsurumine. Where are you getting them from? Are you getting
                them from P. G. O'Neil? If so, these may be dating only from
                when myojigomen was promulgated during the Meiji Restoration.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

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              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Well, given such examples as the surnames Tsurugaoka, Tsuruzaki, Tsuruhara, Tsuruta, and Tsurumine (all using geographical features + tsuru), I don t see
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 21, 1999
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                  nostrand@... wrote:

                  > Noble Cousins!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig! Alas! Crane-Valley just does not sound
                  > all that likely to me.
                  >
                  > Tsuru has been used in forming feminine given names.
                  >
                  > eg. Tsuru (ca 1332) Tsurukome (ca 1332) Tsurume (ca 1392)

                  Well, given such examples as the surnames Tsurugaoka, Tsuruzaki, Tsuruhara, Tsuruta, and
                  Tsurumine (all using geographical features + tsuru), I don't see anything wrong with Tsurutani
                  or Tsurugatani.

                  Effingham
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... No, these are surnames. I specifically omitted placenames from the list. ... That is possible, but in cases like Ashikaga, it s marked as S,P (surname,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 22, 1999
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                    Barbara Nostrand wrote:
                    Baron Edward!

                    You are looking at Japanese place names. While a lot of Japanese
                    family names are toponymic, this does not mean that all Japanese
                    place names are going to appear as Japanese family names. Clan
                    names are even more of a problem as we need to decide what we
                    mean by a "clan". I am assuming that the original poster wants
                    a "han" from the Sengoku period in which case they were generally
                    (last I heard at least) family names.

                    No, these are surnames. I specifically omitted placenames from the list.
                     
                    Now for your examples: Tsurugaoka, Tsuruzaki, Tsuruhara, Tsuruta,
                    and Tsurumine. Where are you getting them from? Are you getting
                    them from P. G. O'Neil? If so, these may be dating only from
                    when myojigomen was promulgated during the Meiji Restoration.


                    That is possible, but in cases like Ashikaga, it's marked as S,P (surname, place name). These were all S only.

                    It doesn't matter when the name entered the lexicon, as far as I'm concerned. If it was a place in period, there's a legitimate chance a family could have settled there and taken the name. The only reason Ashikaga, S冦a, and so on are even surnames is that very reason.

                    Effingham

                  • Barbara Nostrand
                    Baron Edward! I have a copy of the Concise Japanese Placename Dictionary. A LOT of Japanese placenames changed comparatively recently. Further, a lot of places
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 22, 1999
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                      Baron Edward!

                      I have a copy of the Concise Japanese Placename Dictionary.
                      A LOT of Japanese placenames changed comparatively recently.
                      Further, a lot of places were not necessarily even places
                      back in 1600.

                      Further, last I heard, the majority of Japanese surnames
                      were derived in one way or another from myoden and as such
                      were not necessarily simply just any old place name.

                      P.G.O'Neil derived his names from the Tokyo telephone directory
                      and similar sources. (See the introduction.) Who was it that
                      was criticising people for wearing clothing dating from 1630?

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

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                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... True. Just to settle things, I took a trip to the library, and grabbed three random books. I didn t want to waste a whole evening on this, but did want to
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 23, 1999
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                        Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                        > Baron Edward!
                        >
                        > I have a copy of the Concise Japanese Placename Dictionary.
                        > A LOT of Japanese placenames changed comparatively recently.
                        > Further, a lot of places were not necessarily even places
                        > back in 1600.

                        True. Just to settle things, I took a trip to the library, and grabbed
                        three random books. I didn't want to waste a whole evening on this, but did
                        want to check.

                        What I grabbed was the index of the Kadokawa Nihon Chimei Daijiten (with a
                        huge 900-plus page volume for each prefecture), the Seimei Kakei Daijiten,
                        and the Yoshikawa Kokushi Daijiten.

                        This is what I found:

                        a few historical surnames with Tsuru + geographical feature:

                        Tsuruzawa Tomoshiro (d. 1749, a shamisen artist).
                        Tsurumine Shigenobu (Edo era scholar).
                        Tsuruse Chorokuro (a retainer of the Imagawa)
                        Tsuruzawa Tangei (Edo era scholar)
                        Tsuruya (Crane Valley!) Tohachi, a jiuta master.

                        There are a pile more, but they are musicians and artists of the Edo
                        period. I'm assuming that scholars were samurai, and as such, their names
                        were probably older than they were.

                        Place names with tsuru + valley:

                        Let's just say there were several.

                        Two that stuck out were Tsurugadani (an archaic form), and Tsurugai, an
                        interesting reading of Tsuru (ga) ya, or crane valley.

                        Tsurugai, in Fukushima, was referred to by this name as early as the
                        Nanbokucho period. The Soma settled near there (and I've been there, as
                        it's near Haragamachi, my favorite town in N. Japan!). The Soma referred to
                        the place as Tsurugaya in 1393. Later, it was named Tsurugadani. In the
                        Meiji era, it was formally renamed Tsurugadanimura, and is referred to by
                        the locals (as I knew them) as Tsurugadani. They probably still think of
                        the place as Tsurugai, at least during the Nomaoi festival. <G>

                        At any rate, we DO have references for a period place called Tsurugadani,
                        and references to early names of Tsuruya, which has the same kanji.

                        > Further, last I heard, the majority of Japanese surnames
                        > were derived in one way or another from myoden and as such
                        > were not necessarily simply just any old place name.

                        It doesn't matter. The idea is to create a name that is CONSISTENT with
                        period naming practice. It was quite common for a family to derive their
                        name from the land they held. This has been demonstrated by families both
                        great and small: the Soma, the Ashikaga, the Shimazu, the Oouchi, the
                        Tokugawa, and countless branches of the Fujiwara who even took as their
                        name the STREET NUMBER they lived at. Surely daimyo with names like
                        Takayama and Takeda derived these names from locales or estates, no?

                        For tsuru, I'd offer Tsuruzawa, a place in Kyushu, the lords of which took
                        the name Tsuruzawa. They were bested by one of the Ootomo in the 16th
                        century, and vanished from the scene.

                        > P.G.O'Neil derived his names from the Tokyo telephone directory
                        > and similar sources. (See the introduction.) Who was it that
                        > was criticising people for wearing clothing dating from 1630?

                        There is a difference between wearing something documentedly post period,
                        and trying to come up with a name that, while not existing in period, is
                        consistent with period naming styles.

                        Effingham
                      • Barbara Nostrand
                        Baron Edward! ... I wish I could afford that set. It probably isn t even in print any more. Kinokuniya seems to list every Japanese book published in the last
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 23, 1999
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                          Baron Edward!

                          >What I grabbed was the index of the Kadokawa Nihon Chimei Daijiten (with a
                          >huge 900-plus page volume for each prefecture), the Seimei Kakei Daijiten,
                          >and the Yoshikawa Kokushi Daijiten.

                          I wish I could afford that set. It probably isn't even in print any more.
                          Kinokuniya seems to list every Japanese book published in the last forty
                          years regardless of whether or not it is print.

                          >Tsuruzawa Tomoshiro (d. 1749, a shamisen artist).
                          >Tsurumine Shigenobu (Edo era scholar).
                          >Tsuruse Chorokuro (a retainer of the Imagawa)
                          >Tsuruzawa Tangei (Edo era scholar)
                          >Tsuruya (Crane Valley!) Tohachi, a jiuta master.

                          And when did these people live? I can document a significant shift
                          change in the names of Japanese women at about 1600. For that matter,
                          were did you look these people up?

                          >There are a pile more, but they are musicians and artists of the Edo
                          >period. I'm assuming that scholars were samurai, and as such, their names
                          >were probably older than they were.

                          Some of the them would be samurai or descended from samurai. You know
                          perfectly well just how complicated the Edo arts scene was. Quite a
                          few of these artists would be going by names other than a hereditary
                          samurai name though. That doesn't mean that the name itself wasn't
                          descended from a samuari name.

                          >Two that stuck out were Tsurugadani (an archaic form), and Tsurugai, an
                          >interesting reading of Tsuru (ga) ya, or crane valley.

                          For a variety of reasons, I think that Tsuruya would be more likely
                          than Tsurugadan or Tsurugaya as household names.

                          >At any rate, we DO have references for a period place called Tsurugadani,
                          >and references to early names of Tsuruya, which has the same kanji.

                          Baron Edward, you will of course recall that the -ga- is actually
                          descended from its own kanji.

                          >It doesn't matter. The idea is to create a name that is CONSISTENT with
                          >period naming practice.

                          Actually the College of Arms has gotten a bit stuffier than that.

                          >It was quite common for a family to derive their name from the land
                          >they held.

                          Who is disputing that? However, the estates and provinces themselves had
                          names and these were not necessarily the same as village names.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

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                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... The thing that kills ME about Kinokuniya is the fact that I order a book from em, and about two weeks later get an e-mail saying it s out of print and the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 23, 1999
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                            Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                            > Baron Edward!
                            >
                            > >What I grabbed was the index of the Kadokawa Nihon Chimei Daijiten (with a
                            > >huge 900-plus page volume for each prefecture), the Seimei Kakei Daijiten,
                            > >and the Yoshikawa Kokushi Daijiten.
                            >
                            > I wish I could afford that set. It probably isn't even in print any more.
                            > Kinokuniya seems to list every Japanese book published in the last forty
                            > years regardless of whether or not it is print.

                            The thing that kills ME about Kinokuniya is the fact that I order a book from
                            'em, and about two weeks later get an e-mail saying it's out of print and the
                            order's canceled. Meanwhile, I'm drooling over the prospect of getting these
                            cool books. Gr..

                            One of the things I miss about being in Tokyo is the ability to go to Kanda
                            and hit three or four used book stores and grabbing what I want... Sigh.

                            >
                            > >Tsuruzawa Tomoshiro (d. 1749, a shamisen artist).
                            > >Tsurumine Shigenobu (Edo era scholar).
                            > >Tsuruse Chorokuro (a retainer of the Imagawa)
                            > >Tsuruzawa Tangei (Edo era scholar)
                            > >Tsuruya (Crane Valley!) Tohachi, a jiuta master.
                            >
                            > And when did these people live? I can document a significant shift
                            > change in the names of Japanese women at about 1600. For that matter,
                            > were did you look these people up?

                            Most of them were in the Nihonshi Daijiten. And most were late 17th early 18th
                            c. Yes, I see your point about them being post period, but the names are
                            acceptable, especially as the samurai were likely from families that had been
                            around for at least 100 years or more by then.

                            > >There are a pile more, but they are musicians and artists of the Edo
                            > >period. I'm assuming that scholars were samurai, and as such, their names
                            > >were probably older than they were.
                            >
                            > Some of the them would be samurai or descended from samurai. You know
                            > perfectly well just how complicated the Edo arts scene was. Quite a
                            > few of these artists would be going by names other than a hereditary
                            > samurai name though. That doesn't mean that the name itself wasn't
                            > descended from a samuari name

                            Valid point.

                            > Two that stuck out were Tsurugadani (an archaic form), and Tsurugai, an
                            > >interesting reading of Tsuru (ga) ya, or crane valley.
                            >
                            > For a variety of reasons, I think that Tsuruya would be more likely
                            > than Tsurugadan or Tsurugaya as household names.

                            Agreed. I kind of like the name Tsuruya. (There was a famous family of
                            publishers using that name in mid-late Edo, but of course their ya was the ya
                            in Nagoya. No surprise there... <g>

                            > >At any rate, we DO have references for a period place called Tsurugadani,
                            > >and references to early names of Tsuruya, which has the same kanji.
                            >
                            > Baron Edward, you will of course recall that the -ga- is actually
                            > descended from its own kanji.

                            Yup, but it was often omitted, and when it was used is usually written with a
                            small katakana "ke" as in Kasumigaseki, Tsurugaoka, and (my fave) Sekigahara.
                            The fact that as a genitive particle ga and no are often not written down
                            doesn't affect the name, though, as it was written Tsuru+tani and pronounced
                            Tsurugai (which has to be a contraction of Tsuru ga ya).

                            >
                            > >It doesn't matter. The idea is to create a name that is CONSISTENT with
                            > >period naming practice.
                            >
                            > Actually the College of Arms has gotten a bit stuffier than that.

                            Wouldn't surprise me. The pendulum was bound to swing the other way at some
                            point. <g>

                            > >It was quite common for a family to derive their name from the land
                            > >they held.
                            >
                            > Who is disputing that? However, the estates and provinces themselves had
                            > names and these were not necessarily the same as village names.
                            >

                            Tell that to the Tokugawa, Ashikaga, Soma, etc. Those were the names of the
                            villages they settled in. <g>

                            Effingham
                          • Barbara Nostrand
                            Noble Cousins! ... For those of you who do not know what is going on here. The -ya which Baron Edward is refering to means house and designates the name of a
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 24, 1999
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                              Noble Cousins!

                              >
                              >Agreed. I kind of like the name Tsuruya. (There was a famous family of
                              >publishers using that name in mid-late Edo, but of course their ya was the ya
                              >in Nagoya. No surprise there... <g>

                              For those of you who do not know what is going on here. The -ya which
                              Baron Edward is refering to means "house" and designates the name of
                              a commercial establishment. Essentially, there are a number of trade
                              names which became surnames when the people using them officially
                              received permission to have family names during the Meiji Restoration.
                              For example, I know people named Nakaya and Haginoya. Haginoya doesn't
                              even sound like a proper family name to many Japanese people. Haginoya
                              sounds like a reference to a particular kind of sweets shop. It is
                              almost certainly a trade name which became a fmily name.

                              The other -ya means valley and appears in a variety of names such
                              as Shibuya which is a railroad station in Tokyo and is also a family
                              name.

                              >Yup, but it was often omitted,

                              Yes, the -ga is sometimes omitted and has since been abreviated to
                              something which looks like katana ke.

                              >> Who is disputing that? However, the estates and provinces themselves had
                              >> names and these were not necessarily the same as village names.
                              >>
                              >
                              >Tell that to the Tokugawa, Ashikaga, Soma, etc. Those were the names of the
                              >villages they settled in. <g>

                              Baron Edward. There are lots and lots of places which do not appear
                              to have families associated with them. Tokugawa, Soma, &c. are
                              documentable names.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

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                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... And again, what it shows is that in period many Japanese surnames were taken from geographic places, town names. Ergo, a period town name is a viable
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 24, 1999
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                                Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                >
                                > >Tell that to the Tokugawa, Ashikaga, Soma, etc. Those were the names of the
                                > >villages they settled in. <g>
                                >
                                > Baron Edward. There are lots and lots of places which do not appear
                                > to have families associated with them. Tokugawa, Soma, &c. are
                                > documentable names.
                                >

                                And again, what it shows is that in period many Japanese surnames were taken from
                                geographic places, town names. Ergo, a period town name is a viable source for an
                                SCA-use surname.

                                It's certainly more authentic than some of the names other people use, cobbling
                                together bits of typewriter barf and saying "it's a made up name."

                                Effingham
                              • Barbara Nostrand
                                Baron Edward! I agree that far to many people cobble together bits of typewriter barf and call the result a name. This is hardly unique to Japanese names in
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 24, 1999
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                                  Baron Edward!

                                  I agree that far to many people cobble together bits of "typewriter barf"
                                  and call the result a name. This is hardly unique to Japanese names in
                                  the Society. However, we can still do better than picking up a modern
                                  Japanese Atlas and stabbing our finger on it to pick a place name for
                                  a surname.

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

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                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... The town was extant in period with that name. It is a period town name. Period town names were used to create surnames in period. Therefore, this is an
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 24, 1999
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                                    Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                    > Baron Edward!
                                    >
                                    > I agree that far to many people cobble together bits of "typewriter barf"
                                    > and call the result a name. This is hardly unique to Japanese names in
                                    > the Society. However, we can still do better than picking up a modern
                                    > Japanese Atlas and stabbing our finger on it to pick a place name for
                                    > a surname.

                                    The town was extant in period with that name. It is a period town name.
                                    Period town names were used to create surnames in period. Therefore, this is
                                    an acceptable name.


                                    Effingham
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