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Re: [SCA-JML] Refrence

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  • JL Badgley
    ... Excellent resource! John Whitney Hall is definitely one of the names to look for regarding any historical info on Japan. I wish I could find my copy (if
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 2, 2009
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      On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:21 PM, <the.lady.phoenix@...> wrote:
      > Ohayo,
      >
      > well, last night (like 6 hours ago) I was in the house where 2 out of
      > 3 of the places for my refrences to be stored are located, and found,
      >
      > "Government And Local Power In Japan 500-1700" by John Whitney Hall
      > Second printing 1970, SBN 691-03019-7, published by Princeton University Press.
      >
      > I'm wondering if anyone else has read this and how "good" of a
      > resource they found it or didn't and why.  Obviously if I am the first
      > to read it here (though I doubt that!) I'll make a report on if I
      > found it good, hard to follow, etc.
      >
      Excellent resource! John Whitney Hall is definitely one of the names
      to look for regarding any historical info on Japan. I wish I could
      find my copy (if you wanted to check, he might have something in there
      about the uji debate... but maybe not).

      This work looks at the specifics of government--As I recall it looks
      at the governance of Bizen from the early formation of Japanese
      statehood all the way up to the Edo period. It is quite the resource,
      and often quoted, even today. There may be some ideas that are out of
      date, but that doesn't disqualify the scholarship involved in any way.

      -Ii
    • the.lady.phoenix@gmail.com
      Uesugi Family, pages 286, 332-33 Uji 23, 34-44 alas, I can t find any refrence that has both in the hour I ve spent scanning the relavent sections. Sara
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 2, 2009
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        Uesugi Family, pages 286, 332-33
        Uji 23, 34-44

        alas, I can't find any refrence that has both in the hour I've spent
        scanning the relavent sections.

        Sara

        On 02/06/2009, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
        > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:21 PM, <the.lady.phoenix@...> wrote:
        >> Ohayo,
        >>
        >> well, last night (like 6 hours ago) I was in the house where 2 out of
        >> 3 of the places for my refrences to be stored are located, and found,
        >>
        >> "Government And Local Power In Japan 500-1700" by John Whitney Hall
        >> Second printing 1970, SBN 691-03019-7, published by Princeton University
        >> Press.
        >>
        >> I'm wondering if anyone else has read this and how "good" of a
        >> resource they found it or didn't and why.  Obviously if I am the first
        >> to read it here (though I doubt that!) I'll make a report on if I
        >> found it good, hard to follow, etc.
        >>
        > Excellent resource! John Whitney Hall is definitely one of the names
        > to look for regarding any historical info on Japan. I wish I could
        > find my copy (if you wanted to check, he might have something in there
        > about the uji debate... but maybe not).
        >
        > This work looks at the specifics of government--As I recall it looks
        > at the governance of Bizen from the early formation of Japanese
        > statehood all the way up to the Edo period. It is quite the resource,
        > and often quoted, even today. There may be some ideas that are out of
        > date, but that doesn't disqualify the scholarship involved in any way.
        >
        > -Ii
        >
      • the.lady.phoenix@gmail.com
        wait, Page 272, middle of the page By 1572 the process had gone much furthur and over 2/3 of the country had been brought under control of thirteen great
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 2, 2009
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          wait, Page 272, middle of the page "By 1572 the process had gone much
          furthur and over 2/3 of the country had been brought under control of
          thirteen great houses. These were the Uesugi, Hojo, Takeda, Tokugawa,
          Oda, Asakura, Asai, Yamana, Mori, Chosokabe, Otomo, Ryuzoji, and
          Shimazu." any spelling errors are my own but otherwise lifted
          directly as written, grammer and puctuation is Hall's.

          But in Defense there is NO mention of uji on the page or, the ones
          before and after. So there is nothing to say it is an Uji as defined
          by being created by imperial mandate, however if you want to go with
          "linage group" I think that would be a good arguement in support of
          it. Assuming your in or about that time frame.

          Sara
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The author is decent. I ve got some of his stuff. I my have a copy of that particular book in a box in storage at the
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 2, 2009
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!
            > "Government And Local Power In Japan 500-1700" by John Whitney Hall
            > Second printing 1970, SBN 691-03019-7, published by Princeton
            > University Press.
            The author is decent. I've got some of his stuff. I my have a copy of
            that particular book in a box in storage at the moment. The copyright
            date and publisher are by themselves somewhat indicative. 1970 is
            about the time that solid English language scholarship on East Asia
            really got going. Things to notice just from the title. The title
            says that the book is ambitious in scope. Later on, Mass was writing
            more narrowly focused books. Basically, please do read the book, but
            then go on to more focused books such as Hall's book about the
            Muromachi Age.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar






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          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... Here they are writing about the emergence of the bakuhan system which was in effect during the Edo period. Like
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 2, 2009
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              Noble Cousins!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > wait, Page 272, middle of the page "By 1572 the process had gone much
              > furthur and over 2/3 of the country had been brought under control of
              > thirteen great houses. These were the Uesugi, Hojo, Takeda, Tokugawa,
              > Oda, Asakura, Asai, Yamana, Mori, Chosokabe, Otomo, Ryuzoji, and
              > Shimazu." any spelling errors are my own but otherwise lifted
              > directly as written, grammer and puctuation is Hall's.

              Here they are writing about the emergence of the "bakuhan" system
              which was in effect during the Edo period. Like Napoleon, heads of
              great houses would set up close relatives as the military governors
              of provinces too distant for direct rule. This system was continued
              by the Tokugawa who rearranged holdings so that every province was
              either directly controlled by close relatives or allies or adjacent
              to such provinces. However, the samurai garrisoning the provinces
              were not in general family members nor did they claim kinship. Again,
              while most of the ancient uji were eventually extinguished, they
              remained the active kinship group larger than the family up until at
              least the nineteenth century. Why did most of the ancient uji
              disappear? Well, I suspect that people took every opportunity to
              claim membership in more prominent uji regardless of actual descent.
              This was certainly true during the Genpei War where the Minamoto were
              offering uji membership to anyone who would align with them.
              Consequently, if you look at lists of family names divided by uji,
              you will see lots and lots of entries under the Minamoto, the Taira,
              the Fujiwara, and a handful of other uji.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bryant Richards
              ... Thank you for looking, and for sharing what you found. That is kind of what I am going for the lineage group . In Honor and Service, Uesugi no
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 2, 2009
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                >But in Defense there is NO mention of uji on the page or, the ones before and after. So there is nothing to say >it is an Uji as defined by being created by imperial mandate, however if you want to go with
                >"linage group" I think that would be a good arguement in support of it. Assuming your in or about that time >frame.

                Thank you for looking, and for sharing what you found. That is kind of what I am going for the "lineage group".

                In Honor and Service,
                Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu




                ________________________________
                From: "the.lady.phoenix@..." <the.lady.phoenix@...>
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2009 6:50:20 AM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Refrence





                wait, Page 272, middle of the page "By 1572 the process had gone much
                furthur and over 2/3 of the country had been brought under control of
                thirteen great houses. These were the Uesugi, Hojo, Takeda, Tokugawa,
                Oda, Asakura, Asai, Yamana, Mori, Chosokabe, Otomo, Ryuzoji, and
                Shimazu." any spelling errors are my own but otherwise lifted
                directly as written, grammer and puctuation is Hall's.


                Sara






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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