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Re: Poem - Again via web

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  • David
    ... I posted the original and a screenshot in the files section. Files Stuff from Okabe Name Size Creator Created Actions application/ Mikhal.jce 1
    Message 1 of 21 , May 30, 2009
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:
      >
      > There's now a language selector on the web, so Yahoo has probably changed how it detects and handles messages!
      >
      > Argggg...
      >
      > Jim
      >

      I posted the original and a screenshot in the files section.

      Files > Stuff from Okabe
      Name Size Creator Created Actions
      application/ Mikhal.jce
      1 KB elecwolf
      Offline May 29, 2009 Edit Delete Cut
      image/ Mikhal.jpg
    • David
      I realize now that this was probably ignored because of the previous no argument. I m sorry. This is more of a grammar question... Is ohitsuji no Mikaeru
      Message 2 of 21 , May 30, 2009
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        I realize now that this was probably ignored because of the previous 'no' argument. I'm sorry. This is more of a grammar question...
        Is ohitsuji no Mikaeru the proper form or am I backwards?


        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "David" <elecwolf@...> wrote:
        >
        > That would be him. He was very inspiring to me and I wrote a short poem for the book they assembled a while back but I wanted to make a longer one and attempt to make it in English and Japanese and have them both follow the pattern for the poetry style and still have similar meanings.
        > Thank you for showing me 'ram', that will help to. Would this be a place for 'no'? Mikhal the Ram = ohitsuji no Mikaeru?
        >
        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "autumnriver" <tace@> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "David" <elecwolf@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Digging around online I happened to catch at translation of his name, sort of...
        > > > The L sound is on the end which is what really threw me off.
        > > > Mikhal is his name, Michael is how it's pronounced, and Mihaeru is how the page put the romanji for it...
        > >
        > > Mikhal (Michael) would be Mikaeru ƒ~ƒJƒGƒ‹. Is this Mikhal the Ram that the poem will be about (being that he passed away this past fall?) I only met him a few times, but he was very nice and always willing to encourage others to participate in the bardic arts.
        > >
        > > btw, Ram translates into ohitsuji —Y—r (literally: male sheep)
        > >
        > > --Ki no Kotori
        > > (Why, yes, I do live in Calontir. Can't make it to Lilies, though. Family obligations.)
        > >
        >
      • JL Badgley
        ... Although that could, theoretically work (Ohistuji no Mikaeru), but it sounds like The ram s Michael . If you think of no as the possessive marker in
        Message 3 of 21 , May 30, 2009
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          On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:37 AM, David <elecwolf@...> wrote:
          >
          > I realize now that this was probably ignored because of the previous 'no' argument.  I'm sorry.  This is more of a grammar question...
          > Is ohitsuji no Mikaeru the proper form or am I backwards?
          >
          Although that could, theoretically work (Ohistuji no Mikaeru), but it
          sounds like "The ram's Michael". If you think of "no" as the
          possessive marker in English ('s) then you start to see how it comes
          out. Ohitsuji Mikaeru is /better/ but still sounds odd. Why are you
          translating "Ram" but not "Michael"?

          Japanese would write his name "Mikaeru za Ramu" or "Mikaeru Ramu".
          They wouldn't automatically put his family name first, just like when
          someone introduces themselves as Satou Ichirou in English, people
          remember it that way (and then think Ichirou is a family name).

          About "Mikaeru". To make sure this is what you want, it sounds like:
          "me + k + eye + r(l)u". In contrast, your standard "Michael" in
          English is usually "Maikeru" (my + keh + r(l)u). So, how does his
          name sound, phonetically, and that will help you there.

          Alternatively, simply reference Ohitsuji, and leave out his actual
          name. I can't think of any Japanese poems that actually name someone,
          unless the name shows up somehow in the text, but isn't actually their
          name (basically, a pun); they almost always use allusions of one form
          or another rather than directly stating the person's name. You can
          add in comments about the creation of the poem, and mention it was to
          an individual, which gets the point across. Plus, it makes for easier
          composition, and a poem that doesn't require knowledge of an
          individual to still work, after the specific event is forgotten. This
          is also better if you are trying for actual Japanese style poetry.


          -Ii
        • David
          ... I am definitely trying for the actual style. I love the ability to use words that have more meaning. I put in the poem about meeting again and I happened
          Message 4 of 21 , May 30, 2009
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:37 AM, David <elecwolf@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I realize now that this was probably ignored because of the previous 'no' argument.  I'm sorry.  This is more of a grammar question...
            > > Is ohitsuji no Mikaeru the proper form or am I backwards?
            > >
            > Although that could, theoretically work (Ohistuji no Mikaeru), but it
            > sounds like "The ram's Michael". If you think of "no" as the
            > possessive marker in English ('s) then you start to see how it comes
            > out. Ohitsuji Mikaeru is /better/ but still sounds odd. Why are you
            > translating "Ram" but not "Michael"?
            >
            > Japanese would write his name "Mikaeru za Ramu" or "Mikaeru Ramu".
            > They wouldn't automatically put his family name first, just like when
            > someone introduces themselves as Satou Ichirou in English, people
            > remember it that way (and then think Ichirou is a family name).
            >
            > About "Mikaeru". To make sure this is what you want, it sounds like:
            > "me + k + eye + r(l)u". In contrast, your standard "Michael" in
            > English is usually "Maikeru" (my + keh + r(l)u). So, how does his
            > name sound, phonetically, and that will help you there.
            >
            > Alternatively, simply reference Ohitsuji, and leave out his actual
            > name. I can't think of any Japanese poems that actually name someone,
            > unless the name shows up somehow in the text, but isn't actually their
            > name (basically, a pun); they almost always use allusions of one form
            > or another rather than directly stating the person's name. You can
            > add in comments about the creation of the poem, and mention it was to
            > an individual, which gets the point across. Plus, it makes for easier
            > composition, and a poem that doesn't require knowledge of an
            > individual to still work, after the specific event is forgotten. This
            > is also better if you are trying for actual Japanese style poetry.
            >
            >
            > -Ii
            >

            I am definitely trying for the actual style. I love the ability to use words that have more meaning. I put in the poem about meeting again and I happened upon 'meeting again' in my dictionary with the quote attached to 'fortuitous meeting used often in poetry'.

            Calling him the ram would make sense since most of the people reading it or hearing it would know him by that. Probably easier than trying to get his name to fit the phonetics...

            I haven't ran into 'za' yet, I really need to put more study time in...
          • JL Badgley
            ... Oh, that s just the --there is no hard th sound in Japanese, so the - za -Ii
            Message 5 of 21 , May 31, 2009
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              On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:07 PM, David <elecwolf@...> wrote:
              >
              > I haven't ran into 'za' yet, I really need to put more study time in...

              Oh, that's just "the"--there is no hard 'th' sound in Japanese, so "the" -> "za"

              -Ii
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