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RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Kozane in Metal

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  • Michael Peters
    How many different arcs are you planning to program into your CNC? Straight lames are incorrect. Each lame in a dou has a different arc and most dou are
    Message 1 of 15 , May 6, 2009
      How many different arcs are you planning to program into your CNC? Straight lames are incorrect. Each lame in a dou has a different arc and most dou are different for different sized people. Noble plastics makes a good product but I have yet to see a dou made from them (With the exception of an O-Yoroi) that has the correct profile.A good example of the arc of lames is Tengumoon's pic of his pattern laid out on Tousando. How will you do this? Offer metal scales, arced and standard, send them to the customer to be laced into ita (boards/lames) and then returned to you for powder coating? Straight lames have very limited usefulness, that's why I don't bother making the resin kiritsuzane longer than 14 inches.

      Offer powder coated single scales, tapered (in 2 or 3 angles) for the folks building noble kozane dou and you might have a market.







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    • Michael Peters
      Looks like Eff and I were writing at the same time. To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com From: anthony_bryant@cox.net Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 18:26:36 -0400 Subject: Re:
      Message 2 of 15 , May 6, 2009
        Looks like Eff and I were writing at the same time.


        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        From: anthony_bryant@...
        Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 18:26:36 -0400
        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Kozane in Metal




























        On May 6, 2009, at 2:07 PM, Charles Dodge wrote:



        >

        > ME-- As the period moves forward more armour was made with more

        > metal scales and lames. IIRC it wasn't until Edo that whole suits

        > were metal. One of the options that I put forth in my original post

        > was for full lames, making the faux-scale tops wouldn't be that hard.

        >



        Actually, by the 1400s you had armours with more metal. By the mid

        1500s, whole suits of it -- as processing technologies and armour

        developed.



        > ME--Well 18 gage mild or stainless would be a better tradeoff than

        > plastic for authenticity purposes, I consider 18 the thinnest I

        > would go because of the beatings that we put SCA Armour through.

        > Hardened Leather scales is the best option but I'm not set up for

        > leather production. But you're right in that we will always be

        > trading something authentic for SCA purposes.

        >



        The advantage of plastic for scales is that it reproduces quite well

        the LACQUER -- something that is missing in even 18 gg metal.

        Lacquered lames made of leather scales (or even with metal cores)

        could be nearly a quarter of an inch thick once the lacquer was

        applied and cured. Painted metal scales don't come near to that

        "thick" appearance, and only look anemic. Full *lames* of metal, on

        the other hand, look fine when thin. Plastic is a great imitator of

        lacquered *leather* -- metal is a great imitator (>cough<) of

        lacquered metal.



        > ME--I recently purchased some equipment that would make selling pre-

        > made kozane and full lames feasible and was curious if there was a

        > large enough market and if it was cost effective enough to offer on

        > a full time basis or only on a custom order basis. I also have

        > access to a powdercoater that could be an option, already have the

        > lames coated so that all the customer has to do is lace it up and

        > add strapping.

        >

        >



        The best thing you could reproduce would be solid lames of kiritsuke-

        zane -- lames of metal (18gg would be fine) that imitate scale

        construction. Due to the shape of the body lames, unless you actually

        make custom curved pieces it would be problematic doing a full d� that

        way, but straight lames of, say 14" or 12" length would allow for the

        construction of "fake scale" kusazuri, sode, and the tateage (the

        standing plates on the top of the breast plate), which often were made

        slightly differently than the solid lames of a sengoku armour.



        Note in this armour; the d� is a nuinobe d�, but the kusazuri and sode

        are all kebiki odoshi: http://www.rakuten.co.jp/yoroi/cabinet/shirotouhatsu/mae.jpg



        Similar use of kebiki dangly bits here:

        http://www.rakuten.co.jp/yoroi/118275/224480/



        The use of kiritsukezane based on iyozane shows up in dangly bits here:

        http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/yoroi/img10592177328.jpeg



        Making lames like that would be a WONDERFUL thing. Heck, I'd even be

        willing to do the CAD stuff for you. :)



        Effingham


















        _________________________________________________________________
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      • Charles Dodge
        ... From: Anthony Bryant Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Kozane in Metal To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 5:26 PM
        Message 3 of 15 , May 6, 2009
          --- On Wed, 5/6/09, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:

          From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Kozane in Metal
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 5:26 PM









          On May 6, 2009, at 2:07 PM, Charles Dodge wrote:

          >
          > ME-- As the period moves forward more armour was made with more
          > metal scales and lames. IIRC it wasn't until Edo that whole suits
          > were metal. One of the options that I put forth in my original post
          > was for full lames, making the faux-scale tops wouldn't be that hard.
          >

          Actually, by the 1400s you had armours with more metal. By the mid
          1500s, whole suits of it -- as processing technologies and armour
          developed.
           
          --I had thought so but not quite so early as that.

          > ME--Well 18 gage mild or stainless would be a better tradeoff than
          > plastic for authenticity purposes, I consider 18 the thinnest I
          > would go because of the beatings that we put SCA Armour through.
          > Hardened Leather scales is the best option but I'm not set up for
          > leather production. But you're right in that we will always be
          > trading something authentic for SCA purposes.
          >

          The advantage of plastic for scales is that it reproduces quite well
          the LACQUER -- something that is missing in even 18 gg metal.
          Lacquered lames made of leather scales (or even with metal cores)
          could be nearly a quarter of an inch thick once the lacquer was
          applied and cured. Painted metal scales don't come near to that
          "thick" appearance, and only look anemic. Full *lames* of metal, on
          the other hand, look fine when thin. Plastic is a great imitator of
          lacquered *leather* -- metal is a great imitator (>cough<) of
          lacquered metal.

          --True the plastic does look like the lacquered leather, but regardless some people will always complain about it.  I personally don't have anything against plastice done right.  I'm making my do out of your Effingham plates.  I've  got a new business in metal fabrication and wanted to offer a something that seemed to be missing from the realm of Japanese Armour.

          > ME--I recently purchased some equipment that would make selling pre-
          > made kozane and full lames feasible and was curious if there was a
          > large enough market and if it was cost effective enough to offer on
          > a full time basis or only on a custom order basis. I also have
          > access to a powdercoater that could be an option, already have the
          > lames coated so that all the customer has to do is lace it up and
          > add strapping.
          >
          >

          The best thing you could reproduce would be solid lames of kiritsuke-
          zane -- lames of metal (18gg would be fine) that imitate scale
          construction. Due to the shape of the body lames, unless you actually
          make custom curved pieces it would be problematic doing a full dô that
          way, but straight lames of, say 14" or 12" length would allow for the
          construction of "fake scale" kusazuri, sode, and the tateage (the
          standing plates on the top of the breast plate), which often were made
          slightly differently than the solid lames of a sengoku armour.

          --What about an option to buy full lames based on a kozane count length?  Like if you would need say 20 of the 3/4" kozane the full lame would look like 20 kozane. We could most likely be able to offer custom cut curved pieces if the customer gave some measurements of the rest of the do.

          Note in this armour; the dô is a nuinobe dô, but the kusazuri and sode
          are all kebiki odoshi: http://www.rakuten. co.jp/yoroi/ cabinet/shirotou hatsu/mae. jpg

          Similar use of kebiki dangly bits here:
          http://www.rakuten. co.jp/yoroi/ 118275/224480/

          The use of kiritsukezane based on iyozane shows up in dangly bits here:
          http://image. www.rakuten. co.jp/yoroi/ img10592177328. jpeg

          Making lames like that would be a WONDERFUL thing. Heck, I'd even be
          willing to do the CAD stuff for you. :)

          --Please email me privately about this I would like to talk more in-depth on that offer. greek_nakos at yahoo dot com

          Effingham 
           
          --Nakos



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Anthony Bryant
          ... That s an interesting possibility. Take a look, though, at the patterns for okegawa dô on my website.
          Message 4 of 15 , May 6, 2009
            On May 6, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Charles Dodge wrote:
            > --What about an option to buy full lames based on a kozane count
            > length? Like if you would need say 20 of the 3/4" kozane the full
            > lame would look like 20 kozane. We could most likely be able to
            > offer custom cut curved pieces if the customer gave some
            > measurements of the rest of the do.
            >
            >

            That's an interesting possibility. Take a look, though, at the
            patterns for okegawa dô on my website.

            http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/patterns/oldDoFrPattern.PDF
            http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/patterns/oldDoRPattern.PDF
            http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/patterns/NewDoFrPattern.PDF
            http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/patterns/NewDoRPattern.PDF

            Those are not simple direct curves. Could you do that sort of thing?

            Since Noble Plastics makes those standard kozane, one thing that is
            definitely needed is the tapered kozane that would allow curves to be
            produced in scale-made dô. If you made *those* it would probably be a
            good thing. :)
            > --Please email me privately about this I would like to talk more in-
            > depth on that offer. greek_nakos at yahoo dot com
            >

            Will do. :)


            Effingham
          • JL Badgley
            ... Okay, I misspoke. I had thought even the later scales were still usually laquered leather. If you make the smaller scales of the later period, and lace
            Message 5 of 15 , May 7, 2009
              On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
              >
              > On May 6, 2009, at 2:07 PM, Charles Dodge wrote:
              >>
              >> ME-- As the period moves forward more armour was made with more
              >> metal scales and lames.  IIRC it wasn't until Edo that whole suits
              >> were metal.  One of the options that I put forth in my original post
              >> was for full lames, making the faux-scale tops wouldn't be that hard.
              >
              > Actually, by the 1400s you had armours with more metal. By the mid
              > 1500s, whole suits of it -- as processing technologies and armour
              > developed.

              Okay, I misspoke. I had thought even the later scales were still
              usually laquered leather.

              If you make the smaller scales of the later period, and lace them up
              right, would it still have problems if they were 18~20 gauge? I know
              that people worry about it bending, but it wouldn't be like a rigid
              suit in that there would be more give--I expect even taut lacing would
              stretch a bit more on impact, and you generally have 2~3 layers of
              metal in any one given location, don't you?

              -Ii
            • michael A
              simple solution do it in 18 ga or  perferably 20ga 1050 spring steel. with the overlap it will handle  the abuse just fine. ... From: JL Badgley
              Message 6 of 15 , May 7, 2009
                simple solution do it in 18 ga or  perferably 20ga 1050 spring steel. with the overlap it will handle  the abuse just fine.
                ---kiyohara

                --- On Thu, 5/7/09, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:


                From: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>
                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Kozane in Metal
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 2:18 AM


                On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
                >
                > On May 6, 2009, at 2:07 PM, Charles Dodge wrote:
                >>
                >> ME-- As the period moves forward more armour was made with more
                >> metal scales and lames.  IIRC it wasn't until Edo that whole suits
                >> were metal.  One of the options that I put forth in my original post
                >> was for full lames, making the faux-scale tops wouldn't be that hard.
                >
                > Actually, by the 1400s you had armours with more metal. By the mid
                > 1500s, whole suits of it -- as processing technologies and armour
                > developed.

                Okay, I misspoke.  I had thought even the later scales were still
                usually laquered leather.

                If you make the smaller scales of the later period, and lace them up
                right, would it still have problems if they were 18~20 gauge?  I know
                that people worry about it bending, but it wouldn't be like a rigid
                suit in that there would be more give--I expect even taut lacing would
                stretch a bit more on impact, and you generally have 2~3 layers of
                metal in any one given location, don't you?

                -Ii


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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Aaron Grossman
                I could not find the appropriate email in this thread to reply to, but regarding material thickness, 20ga is the most common I ve seen around. Most of the
                Message 7 of 15 , May 14, 2009
                  I could not find the appropriate email in this thread to reply to, but regarding material thickness, 20ga is the most common I've seen around. Most of the folks I've seen on the field are wearing either Polar Bear Forge or White Mountain Armoury lames here in New England. Worth noting, Polar Bear [whose site I only discovered this morning] seems to offer two designs that I assume are intended to be kozane [see numbers 14 and 18].

                  http://www.polarbearforge.com/lamellar.htm
                  http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/lamella.php

                  Regards,
                  Ryuta




                  ________________________________
                  From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 8:06:09 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Kozane in Metal






                  On May 6, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Charles Dodge wrote:
                  > --What about an option to buy full lames based on a kozane count
                  > length? Like if you would need say 20 of the 3/4" kozane the full
                  > lame would look like 20 kozane. We could most likely be able to
                  > offer custom cut curved pieces if the customer gave some
                  > measurements of the rest of the do.
                  >
                  >

                  That's an interesting possibility. Take a look, though, at the
                  patterns for okegawa dô on my website.

                  http://www.sengokud aimyo.com/ katchu/graphics/ patterns/ oldDoFrPattern. PDF
                  http://www.sengokud aimyo.com/ katchu/graphics/ patterns/ oldDoRPattern. PDF
                  http://www.sengokud aimyo.com/ katchu/graphics/ patterns/ NewDoFrPattern. PDF
                  http://www.sengokud aimyo.com/ katchu/graphics/ patterns/ NewDoRPattern. PDF

                  Those are not simple direct curves. Could you do that sort of thing?

                  Since Noble Plastics makes those standard kozane, one thing that is
                  definitely needed is the tapered kozane that would allow curves to be
                  produced in scale-made dô. If you made *those* it would probably be a
                  good thing. :)
                  > --Please email me privately about this I would like to talk more in-
                  > depth on that offer. greek_nakos at yahoo dot com
                  >

                  Will do. :)

                  Effingham







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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