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RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*

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  • Chibasama Ryuichiro
    The final battle is a fanciful demonstration based on the numbers generated in the simulations. They generally try to demonstrate why each result in the
    Message 1 of 20 , May 4 9:38 AM
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      The final battle is a fanciful demonstration based on the numbers generated
      in the simulations. They generally try to demonstrate why each result in
      the simulations came out like they did.

      The whole premise requires the suspension of disbelief, and there are many
      factors they are not yet able to compensate for (like common unit size,
      sneakiness, and efficacy of fighting style), but it is at least an
      interesting exercise, and quite entertaining. I loved it when the pirate
      shot the feudal knight in the face ;)

      Live, Love, Learn!
      -Chiba


      -----Original Message-----
      From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      aimee brooks
      Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 12:15 PM
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*

      I watched the ninja vs spartan episode myself and found their simulation
      to be wanting. In the end battle, the ninja drew his sword and screamed
      to launch an attack, while still out of striking range. Like THAT would
      ever happen. Ninja were known as silent killers for a reason!
      And one would think that the ninja would figure out pretty quickly that
      he needed to bypass that shield somehow and not just stand there hucking
      things at it. Likewise with the spartan chasing the ninja into the
      woods- wasn't that one of the worst things to do when dealing with
      ninja? Ninja exelled at fighting in places like that, where they had
      lots of cover to launch sneak attacks from.
      -Hirokawa no Tsuru

      autumnriver wrote:

      >
      >
      > IMHO, it's apples vs oranges, with much the same results.
      >
      > In Ninja vs. Spartans, they forced a scenario where a ninja would face
      > a Spartan one on one. Like that would ever happen? Spartans ALWAYS
      > fought as part of a team--they were famous for it. Ninja were
      > spies--if they did their job right, they wouldn't have to fight at all.
      >
      > Same thing with Viking vs. Samurai. The Vikings were raiders and liked
      > to fight with a locked shield wall whenever possible. When they fought
      > each other, it was usually aboard a ship. IIRC, Samurai tended to
      > break up to fight individually during battle, at least until they had
      > muskets. The Samurai had better weapons, but the Vikings weren't
      > afraid of the sea. (But then again, look what happened to the Mongols
      > when they tried the nautical approach!)
      >
      > I do think a Knight vs. Samurai episode would be amusing. Bushido vs.
      > Chivalry! In my twisted imagination, the end result would not be about
      > armor, technology or tactics, but who wrote the best poetry. ;-D
      >
      > You know, this Tuesday's episode is Mafia vs. Yakuza. I nearly died
      > laughing when I saw the preview. Why, yes, I am going to watch it,
      > just for the LOLZ.
      >
      > --Ki no Kotori
      >



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    • Rick Johnson
      Simulations are only as good as the guy who programs them. And the guy is rarely an expert in the field he creates the simulations for. You can be in the field
      Message 2 of 20 , May 4 9:51 AM
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        Simulations are only as good as the guy who programs them.
        And the guy is rarely an expert in the field he creates the simulations for.

        You can be in the field practicing with Viking and Japanese swords, learning from experts and taking millions of notes and reading every book on the subject or
        .. you can sit at a computer and learn everythign there is about programs.

        But if you try to do both, you will never be an expert at either.


        Rick Johnson,
        PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
        geocities.com/RikJohnson39
        "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

        Please note: message attached

        From: Chibasama Ryuichiro <chiba@...>
        To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*
        Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:38:51 -0400


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      • Chibasama Ryuichiro
        Definitely. Apparently there s seven years of study involved in the simulation algorithms, but who knows how accurate that is. I d say, they re still a long
        Message 3 of 20 , May 4 10:04 AM
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          Definitely. Apparently there's seven years of study involved in the
          simulation algorithms, but who knows how accurate that is.

          I'd say, they're still a long way from 'definitive', but they're doing 'ok'.
          Good enough for television, not nearly good enough for science/history.

          Live, Love, Learn!
          -Chiba


          -----Original Message-----
          From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Rick Johnson
          Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 12:51 PM
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*

          Simulations are only as good as the guy who programs them.
          And the guy is rarely an expert in the field he creates the simulations for.

          You can be in the field practicing with Viking and Japanese swords, learning
          from experts and taking millions of notes and reading every book on the
          subject or
          .. you can sit at a computer and learn everythign there is about programs.

          But if you try to do both, you will never be an expert at either.


          Rick Johnson,
          PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
          geocities.com/RikJohnson39
          "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security
          will soon find that they have neither!"

          Please note: message attached

          From: Chibasama Ryuichiro <chiba@...>
          To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*
          Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:38:51 -0400


          ____________________________________________________________
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          trading account.
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          wdob9lv3sJOMB0m5SNqVYMHR5NO/

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • wodeford
          This is why I pretty much live on movies and PBS any more.....
          Message 4 of 20 , May 4 11:56 AM
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            This is why I pretty much live on movies and PBS any more.....
          • sekinakagawa@aol.com
            Greetings, My thin with the Ninja scenario is the fact that I remember reading in one of AJ book s that the ninja were as normal looking as you and I in
            Message 5 of 20 , May 4 12:05 PM
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              Greetings,
              My thin with the Ninja scenario is the fact that I remember reading in
              one of AJ book's that the ninja were as normal "looking" as you and I in the
              sense that they infiltrated the enemy as garners, cooks, peddlers and so on
              so that they would not look out of place and effectively collect
              information. As per assassinations, I believe they were pretty stealthy and it would
              have been a silent attack, none of the "movie" stuff. Just my two Yen.

              Humbly,
              -Sukeie

              To ask a question may be a moments' shame,
              But not to ask and remain ignorant, is a life long shame.


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            • Rick Johnson
              ... In any army, les than 5% would be really excellent fighters. Most would be front-line combat troops with enough training to stay alive and kill... like
              Message 6 of 20 , May 4 12:53 PM
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                >>My thin with the Ninja scenario is the fact that I remember reading in one of AJ book's that the ninja were as normal "looking" as you and I in the sense that they infiltrated the enemy as garners, cooks, peddlers and so on
                >>As per assassinations, I believe they were pretty stealthy and it would have been a silent attack, none of the "movie" stuff. Just my two Yen.

                In any army, les than 5% would be really excellent fighters. Most would be front-line combat troops with enough training to stay alive and kill... like me.
                Look at the US Army. 95% are front line grunts, les than 5% would be Rangers or Delta Force or whatever.

                Same in Japan with 95% being low-level Samurai with soldier-grade swords or spears and less than 5% being equal to our image of Tishiro Mifune.

                As for ninja, they were spies, not super-soldiers. When they killed, they'd prefer to shove a cheap sword into someone's back or poison them from a distance or a dagger in the kidney while they were 'in congress' and defenseless. So you wouldn't find many, if any, who would be what we think of as Ashida Kim or Sho Kosugi.

                Vikings tended to prefer to shoot people from a distance with bows and chase after unarmed civilians with axes. You can't spend loot if you face off agaisnt a trained army! And far too many vikings were.. farmers who went raiding withour much formal training.


                So whern you do simulations like this, are you assuming front-line grunt agaisnt front-line grunt or the equivalent of Spetznost against Delta-Force? Sho against Toshiro?
                Or will you match some Danish farmer who only owns an axe plus his father's stolen and rusty byrnie against the best Japan has to offer?

                It the old "Rapier vs Katana" argument all over again.







                Rick Johnson,
                PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                geocities.com/RikJohnson39
                "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

                Please note: message attached

                From: sekinakagawa@...
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*
                Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:05:19 EDT



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              • James Eckman
                Why are we even discussing this, everyone knows that NINJA are the world s greatest fighters! Just like in the movies ;) Though frankly I think the Romans
                Message 7 of 20 , May 4 2:59 PM
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                  Why are we even discussing this, everyone knows that NINJA are the
                  world's greatest fighters! Just like in the movies ;)

                  Though frankly I think the Romans would kick all of their asses since
                  historically they kicked two of them and until the Sengoku period
                  Japanese armies were poorly organized. I would also say small unit
                  tactics of the Japanese were pretty much every man for himself.... Not a
                  good tactic against those cheating, sneaky, triple-teaming Romans.

                  AKA soldiers versus warriors.

                  > A Viking would not stand a chance against a Samurai.
                  Oops, there were historical samurai whose ass I could have kicked. Like
                  samurai infant ;) It's a social class, Viking is a job title. I suspect
                  samurai accountant would have his ass kicked by a Viking.
                  > Viking use brute force to smash Shields and hack with their large, unbalanced swords.
                  Brute force is good sometimes. A highly tempered sword struck hard with
                  a big heavy nasty ax might not survive since this was a problem against
                  other Japanese as well. Though wearing western armor on a Japanese
                  summer day would be an extra special experience. LA is bad enough and
                  there's no humidity!
                  > Look at what they did to the Mongols.
                  >
                  You mean like have being almost totally defeated by a bunch of reluctant
                  Korean conscripts....
                  > Just wanted to give you some fodder to toss around,
                  >
                  Or toss up ;) Ahh reminds me of playing D&D....
                  > Posted by: "autumnriver"
                  > I do think a Knight vs. Samurai episode would be amusing. Bushido vs. Chivalry! In my twisted imagination, the end result would not be about armor, technology or tactics, but who wrote the best poetry. ;-D
                  >
                  Painting duels!!!! Musashi would have that one nailed.
                  > You know, this Tuesday's episode is Mafia vs. Yakuza. I nearly died laughing when I saw the preview. Why, yes, I am going to watch it, just for the LOLZ.
                  >
                  That is soooo sick!
                  > Sigh, and now I've gone and added to the pile of fertilizer.
                  >
                  > -Ii
                  >
                  It just makes me feel like a teenager again.... hmmm fertilizer generator

                  Jim
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