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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*

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  • Nick starnes
    The Viking did not have the metallurgy the Japanese sword makers did. There is no way an 800 A,D sword would stand up to a Japanese folded 100,12th 15th
    Message 1 of 20 , May 3, 2009
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      The Viking did not have the metallurgy the Japanese sword makers did. There is no way an 800 A,D sword would stand up to a Japanese folded 100,12th 15th century etc, or more times sword who's cutting edge was of a diff. metallurgy for sharpness than thte spine  of which was a diff. metal . A diff. Rockwell hardening . the point being that just "Sword on Sword" the Vikings could not compete. The discipline of a Samurai and the "Martial Art" aspect would dominate. The big hulking German or Norwegian could not stand up to the the "Bushido" of the Samurai.




      ________________________________
      From: Scott <scottc_4@...>
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2009 5:58:15 PM
      Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*





      I have watched all of the Deadliest Warrior episodes so far. I take them for what they are. Entertainment, not reality. I am not so big on the out comes as how they test them. SUch as, since this is a forum focused on Japan, the Viking v. Samurai episode. They used a stuntman with really crappy technique rather than someone actually trained in how to properly used the Japanese sword to test it. Another thing is that using modern replica weapons in the case of the Japanese weapons are usually inferior to the weapons that would have been used. Now, one could argue about the equipment and training of the Ashigaru as being low. But, the idea was to test the "professional" samurai born and raised in a warrior family and such. Also, the modern replica of the knights sword seemed to be a whole lot sharper than what MOST experts think would be historically acurate.







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • autumnriver
      IMHO, it s apples vs oranges, with much the same results. In Ninja vs. Spartans, they forced a scenario where a ninja would face a Spartan one on one. Like
      Message 2 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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        IMHO, it's apples vs oranges, with much the same results.

        In Ninja vs. Spartans, they forced a scenario where a ninja would face a Spartan one on one. Like that would ever happen? Spartans ALWAYS fought as part of a team--they were famous for it. Ninja were spies--if they did their job right, they wouldn't have to fight at all.

        Same thing with Viking vs. Samurai. The Vikings were raiders and liked to fight with a locked shield wall whenever possible. When they fought each other, it was usually aboard a ship. IIRC, Samurai tended to break up to fight individually during battle, at least until they had muskets. The Samurai had better weapons, but the Vikings weren't afraid of the sea. (But then again, look what happened to the Mongols when they tried the nautical approach!)

        I do think a Knight vs. Samurai episode would be amusing. Bushido vs. Chivalry! In my twisted imagination, the end result would not be about armor, technology or tactics, but who wrote the best poetry. ;-D

        You know, this Tuesday's episode is Mafia vs. Yakuza. I nearly died laughing when I saw the preview. Why, yes, I am going to watch it, just for the LOLZ.

        --Ki no Kotori
      • JL Badgley
        ... Huh? I d say that the Vikings probably had better steel. They didn t need to differentially harden to get something that wouldn t break but would still be
        Message 3 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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          On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
          > The Viking did not have the metallurgy the Japanese sword makers did. There is no way an 800 A,D sword would stand up to a Japanese folded 100,12th 15th century etc, or more times sword who's cutting edge was of a diff. metallurgy for sharpness than thte spine  of which was a diff. metal . A diff. Rockwell hardening . the point being that just "Sword on Sword" the Vikings could not compete. The discipline of a Samurai and the "Martial Art" aspect would dominate. The big hulking German or Norwegian could not stand up to the the "Bushido" of the Samurai.
          >

          Huh?

          I'd say that the Vikings probably had better steel. They didn't need
          to differentially harden to get something that wouldn't break but
          would still be flexible--and they were likely using bog iron, I've
          been led to understand, rather than mined iron ore.

          And who says they just use brute force? Just because we don't have a
          continuing tradition of martial arts, doesn't mean it didn't
          exist--any culture that routinely fights and goes to war is going to
          have soldiers that know what to do with the tools they are given... so
          I'm hoping this is in jest. Otherwise, you might as well say that
          most of the samurai before the Edo period were just hulking brutes,
          too, since there aren't schools recorded for most of them.

          The problem with any of these is that, even one on one, it depends a
          lot on the circumstances and the fighter. To try to say one type of
          general fighting is better than another just seems ridiculous to me.

          Sigh, and now I've gone and added to the pile of fertilizer.


          -Ii
        • Diane Taylor
          My money s on the Yakuza.   *Yes, I ve got it set up to record* YIS, Kujo no Ume See ya next time, Diane Taylor http://dianet-write.weebly.com/
          Message 4 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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            My money's on the Yakuza.   *Yes, I've got it set up to record*

            YIS,
            Kujo no Ume

            See ya next time,



            Diane Taylor



            http://dianet-write.weebly.com/

            http://paranormal-minds.blogspot.com/

            http://groups.google.com/group/order-of-demented-dreamers



            Writers don't get mad, they write books.

            --- On Mon, 5/4/09, autumnriver <tace@...> wrote:

            From: autumnriver <tace@...>
            Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 6:22 AM

















            IMHO, it's apples vs oranges, with much the same results.



            In Ninja vs. Spartans, they forced a scenario where a ninja would face a Spartan one on one. Like that would ever happen? Spartans ALWAYS fought as part of a team--they were famous for it. Ninja were spies--if they did their job right, they wouldn't have to fight at all.



            Same thing with Viking vs. Samurai. The Vikings were raiders and liked to fight with a locked shield wall whenever possible. When they fought each other, it was usually aboard a ship. IIRC, Samurai tended to break up to fight individually during battle, at least until they had muskets. The Samurai had better weapons, but the Vikings weren't afraid of the sea. (But then again, look what happened to the Mongols when they tried the nautical approach!)



            I do think a Knight vs. Samurai episode would be amusing. Bushido vs. Chivalry! In my twisted imagination, the end result would not be about armor, technology or tactics, but who wrote the best poetry. ;-D



            You know, this Tuesday's episode is Mafia vs. Yakuza. I nearly died laughing when I saw the preview. Why, yes, I am going to watch it, just for the LOLZ.



            --Ki no Kotori































            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • aimee brooks
            I watched the ninja vs spartan episode myself and found their simulation to be wanting. In the end battle, the ninja drew his sword and screamed to launch an
            Message 5 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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              I watched the ninja vs spartan episode myself and found their simulation
              to be wanting. In the end battle, the ninja drew his sword and screamed
              to launch an attack, while still out of striking range. Like THAT would
              ever happen. Ninja were known as silent killers for a reason!
              And one would think that the ninja would figure out pretty quickly that
              he needed to bypass that shield somehow and not just stand there hucking
              things at it. Likewise with the spartan chasing the ninja into the
              woods- wasn't that one of the worst things to do when dealing with
              ninja? Ninja exelled at fighting in places like that, where they had
              lots of cover to launch sneak attacks from.
              -Hirokawa no Tsuru

              autumnriver wrote:

              >
              >
              > IMHO, it's apples vs oranges, with much the same results.
              >
              > In Ninja vs. Spartans, they forced a scenario where a ninja would face
              > a Spartan one on one. Like that would ever happen? Spartans ALWAYS
              > fought as part of a team--they were famous for it. Ninja were
              > spies--if they did their job right, they wouldn't have to fight at all.
              >
              > Same thing with Viking vs. Samurai. The Vikings were raiders and liked
              > to fight with a locked shield wall whenever possible. When they fought
              > each other, it was usually aboard a ship. IIRC, Samurai tended to
              > break up to fight individually during battle, at least until they had
              > muskets. The Samurai had better weapons, but the Vikings weren't
              > afraid of the sea. (But then again, look what happened to the Mongols
              > when they tried the nautical approach!)
              >
              > I do think a Knight vs. Samurai episode would be amusing. Bushido vs.
              > Chivalry! In my twisted imagination, the end result would not be about
              > armor, technology or tactics, but who wrote the best poetry. ;-D
              >
              > You know, this Tuesday's episode is Mafia vs. Yakuza. I nearly died
              > laughing when I saw the preview. Why, yes, I am going to watch it,
              > just for the LOLZ.
              >
              > --Ki no Kotori
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Chibasama Ryuichiro
              The final battle is a fanciful demonstration based on the numbers generated in the simulations. They generally try to demonstrate why each result in the
              Message 6 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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                The final battle is a fanciful demonstration based on the numbers generated
                in the simulations. They generally try to demonstrate why each result in
                the simulations came out like they did.

                The whole premise requires the suspension of disbelief, and there are many
                factors they are not yet able to compensate for (like common unit size,
                sneakiness, and efficacy of fighting style), but it is at least an
                interesting exercise, and quite entertaining. I loved it when the pirate
                shot the feudal knight in the face ;)

                Live, Love, Learn!
                -Chiba


                -----Original Message-----
                From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                aimee brooks
                Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 12:15 PM
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*

                I watched the ninja vs spartan episode myself and found their simulation
                to be wanting. In the end battle, the ninja drew his sword and screamed
                to launch an attack, while still out of striking range. Like THAT would
                ever happen. Ninja were known as silent killers for a reason!
                And one would think that the ninja would figure out pretty quickly that
                he needed to bypass that shield somehow and not just stand there hucking
                things at it. Likewise with the spartan chasing the ninja into the
                woods- wasn't that one of the worst things to do when dealing with
                ninja? Ninja exelled at fighting in places like that, where they had
                lots of cover to launch sneak attacks from.
                -Hirokawa no Tsuru

                autumnriver wrote:

                >
                >
                > IMHO, it's apples vs oranges, with much the same results.
                >
                > In Ninja vs. Spartans, they forced a scenario where a ninja would face
                > a Spartan one on one. Like that would ever happen? Spartans ALWAYS
                > fought as part of a team--they were famous for it. Ninja were
                > spies--if they did their job right, they wouldn't have to fight at all.
                >
                > Same thing with Viking vs. Samurai. The Vikings were raiders and liked
                > to fight with a locked shield wall whenever possible. When they fought
                > each other, it was usually aboard a ship. IIRC, Samurai tended to
                > break up to fight individually during battle, at least until they had
                > muskets. The Samurai had better weapons, but the Vikings weren't
                > afraid of the sea. (But then again, look what happened to the Mongols
                > when they tried the nautical approach!)
                >
                > I do think a Knight vs. Samurai episode would be amusing. Bushido vs.
                > Chivalry! In my twisted imagination, the end result would not be about
                > armor, technology or tactics, but who wrote the best poetry. ;-D
                >
                > You know, this Tuesday's episode is Mafia vs. Yakuza. I nearly died
                > laughing when I saw the preview. Why, yes, I am going to watch it,
                > just for the LOLZ.
                >
                > --Ki no Kotori
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Rick Johnson
                Simulations are only as good as the guy who programs them. And the guy is rarely an expert in the field he creates the simulations for. You can be in the field
                Message 7 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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                  Simulations are only as good as the guy who programs them.
                  And the guy is rarely an expert in the field he creates the simulations for.

                  You can be in the field practicing with Viking and Japanese swords, learning from experts and taking millions of notes and reading every book on the subject or
                  .. you can sit at a computer and learn everythign there is about programs.

                  But if you try to do both, you will never be an expert at either.


                  Rick Johnson,
                  PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                  geocities.com/RikJohnson39
                  "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

                  Please note: message attached

                  From: Chibasama Ryuichiro <chiba@...>
                  To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*
                  Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:38:51 -0400


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                • Chibasama Ryuichiro
                  Definitely. Apparently there s seven years of study involved in the simulation algorithms, but who knows how accurate that is. I d say, they re still a long
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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                    Definitely. Apparently there's seven years of study involved in the
                    simulation algorithms, but who knows how accurate that is.

                    I'd say, they're still a long way from 'definitive', but they're doing 'ok'.
                    Good enough for television, not nearly good enough for science/history.

                    Live, Love, Learn!
                    -Chiba


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Rick Johnson
                    Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 12:51 PM
                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*

                    Simulations are only as good as the guy who programs them.
                    And the guy is rarely an expert in the field he creates the simulations for.

                    You can be in the field practicing with Viking and Japanese swords, learning
                    from experts and taking millions of notes and reading every book on the
                    subject or
                    .. you can sit at a computer and learn everythign there is about programs.

                    But if you try to do both, you will never be an expert at either.


                    Rick Johnson,
                    PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                    geocities.com/RikJohnson39
                    "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security
                    will soon find that they have neither!"

                    Please note: message attached

                    From: Chibasama Ryuichiro <chiba@...>
                    To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*
                    Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:38:51 -0400


                    ____________________________________________________________
                    Prices, software, charts & analysis. Click here to open your online FX
                    trading account.
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                    wdob9lv3sJOMB0m5SNqVYMHR5NO/

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                  • wodeford
                    This is why I pretty much live on movies and PBS any more.....
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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                      This is why I pretty much live on movies and PBS any more.....
                    • sekinakagawa@aol.com
                      Greetings, My thin with the Ninja scenario is the fact that I remember reading in one of AJ book s that the ninja were as normal looking as you and I in
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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                        Greetings,
                        My thin with the Ninja scenario is the fact that I remember reading in
                        one of AJ book's that the ninja were as normal "looking" as you and I in the
                        sense that they infiltrated the enemy as garners, cooks, peddlers and so on
                        so that they would not look out of place and effectively collect
                        information. As per assassinations, I believe they were pretty stealthy and it would
                        have been a silent attack, none of the "movie" stuff. Just my two Yen.

                        Humbly,
                        -Sukeie

                        To ask a question may be a moments' shame,
                        But not to ask and remain ignorant, is a life long shame.


                        **************2009 3 Free CREDIT SCORES: See Your 3 Credit Scores from All
                        3 Bureaus FREE!
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                      • Rick Johnson
                        ... In any army, les than 5% would be really excellent fighters. Most would be front-line combat troops with enough training to stay alive and kill... like
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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                          >>My thin with the Ninja scenario is the fact that I remember reading in one of AJ book's that the ninja were as normal "looking" as you and I in the sense that they infiltrated the enemy as garners, cooks, peddlers and so on
                          >>As per assassinations, I believe they were pretty stealthy and it would have been a silent attack, none of the "movie" stuff. Just my two Yen.

                          In any army, les than 5% would be really excellent fighters. Most would be front-line combat troops with enough training to stay alive and kill... like me.
                          Look at the US Army. 95% are front line grunts, les than 5% would be Rangers or Delta Force or whatever.

                          Same in Japan with 95% being low-level Samurai with soldier-grade swords or spears and less than 5% being equal to our image of Tishiro Mifune.

                          As for ninja, they were spies, not super-soldiers. When they killed, they'd prefer to shove a cheap sword into someone's back or poison them from a distance or a dagger in the kidney while they were 'in congress' and defenseless. So you wouldn't find many, if any, who would be what we think of as Ashida Kim or Sho Kosugi.

                          Vikings tended to prefer to shoot people from a distance with bows and chase after unarmed civilians with axes. You can't spend loot if you face off agaisnt a trained army! And far too many vikings were.. farmers who went raiding withour much formal training.


                          So whern you do simulations like this, are you assuming front-line grunt agaisnt front-line grunt or the equivalent of Spetznost against Delta-Force? Sho against Toshiro?
                          Or will you match some Danish farmer who only owns an axe plus his father's stolen and rusty byrnie against the best Japan has to offer?

                          It the old "Rapier vs Katana" argument all over again.







                          Rick Johnson,
                          PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                          geocities.com/RikJohnson39
                          "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

                          Please note: message attached

                          From: sekinakagawa@...
                          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Samurai vs Viking Ninja vs Spartan?? *gag*
                          Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:05:19 EDT



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                        • James Eckman
                          Why are we even discussing this, everyone knows that NINJA are the world s greatest fighters! Just like in the movies ;) Though frankly I think the Romans
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 4, 2009
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                            Why are we even discussing this, everyone knows that NINJA are the
                            world's greatest fighters! Just like in the movies ;)

                            Though frankly I think the Romans would kick all of their asses since
                            historically they kicked two of them and until the Sengoku period
                            Japanese armies were poorly organized. I would also say small unit
                            tactics of the Japanese were pretty much every man for himself.... Not a
                            good tactic against those cheating, sneaky, triple-teaming Romans.

                            AKA soldiers versus warriors.

                            > A Viking would not stand a chance against a Samurai.
                            Oops, there were historical samurai whose ass I could have kicked. Like
                            samurai infant ;) It's a social class, Viking is a job title. I suspect
                            samurai accountant would have his ass kicked by a Viking.
                            > Viking use brute force to smash Shields and hack with their large, unbalanced swords.
                            Brute force is good sometimes. A highly tempered sword struck hard with
                            a big heavy nasty ax might not survive since this was a problem against
                            other Japanese as well. Though wearing western armor on a Japanese
                            summer day would be an extra special experience. LA is bad enough and
                            there's no humidity!
                            > Look at what they did to the Mongols.
                            >
                            You mean like have being almost totally defeated by a bunch of reluctant
                            Korean conscripts....
                            > Just wanted to give you some fodder to toss around,
                            >
                            Or toss up ;) Ahh reminds me of playing D&D....
                            > Posted by: "autumnriver"
                            > I do think a Knight vs. Samurai episode would be amusing. Bushido vs. Chivalry! In my twisted imagination, the end result would not be about armor, technology or tactics, but who wrote the best poetry. ;-D
                            >
                            Painting duels!!!! Musashi would have that one nailed.
                            > You know, this Tuesday's episode is Mafia vs. Yakuza. I nearly died laughing when I saw the preview. Why, yes, I am going to watch it, just for the LOLZ.
                            >
                            That is soooo sick!
                            > Sigh, and now I've gone and added to the pile of fertilizer.
                            >
                            > -Ii
                            >
                            It just makes me feel like a teenager again.... hmmm fertilizer generator

                            Jim
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