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Re: Heian men's court outfit

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  • wodeford
    ... Hopefully, Ii-dono will see this and respond because he does actually WEAR this stuff. I m dashing out shortly to an event this weekend, but I do have a
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 24, 2009
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "feikoi" <feikoi@...> wrote:
      > Typically I wear the garb of my Tang Chinese [female] persona, but for an upcoming event, I decided to wear something to correspond with my friend's Heian female persona. Specifically, I'm working on a variation of the ikan/noshi sugata so helpfully analysed on Mr. Bryant's website.

      Hopefully, Ii-dono will see this and respond because he does actually WEAR this stuff.

      I'm dashing out shortly to an event this weekend, but I do have a book in Japanese with photos of the stages of getting dressed that Ii-dono and his lady kindly added to my library. I'd be very happy to have a look on my return as it does include a man's court outfit.

      Yes on the koshi-himo! Bias tape (the size used as quilt binding) works dandy if you don't want to be tearing random strips of fabric to use.

      I do hope there will be pictures of the final result!

      Saionji no Hanae
      West Kingdom
    • JL Badgley
      ... I m currently wandering around Seoul, and then off on another trip, so I won t be back for a while, but Abe-hime may be able to help with pictures next
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 24, 2009
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        On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:26 AM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "feikoi" <feikoi@...> wrote:
        >> Typically I wear the garb of my Tang Chinese [female] persona, but for an upcoming event, I decided to wear something to correspond with my friend's Heian female persona. Specifically, I'm working on a variation of the ikan/noshi sugata so helpfully analysed on Mr. Bryant's website.
        >
        > Hopefully, Ii-dono will see this and respond because he does actually WEAR this stuff.
        >
        > I'm dashing out shortly to an event this weekend, but I do have a book in Japanese with photos of the stages of getting dressed that Ii-dono and his lady kindly added to my library. I'd be very happy to have a look on my return as it does include a man's court outfit.
        >
        > Yes on the koshi-himo! Bias tape (the size used as quilt binding) works dandy if you don't want to be tearing random strips of fabric to use.
        >
        > I do hope there will be pictures of the final result!

        I'm currently wandering around Seoul, and then off on another trip, so
        I won't be back for a while, but Abe-hime may be able to help with
        pictures next week.

        http://www.kariginu.jp is a great resource. In particular, here's the
        stuff on the ikan no ho: http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/1-3.htm

        Also, here:

        http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/7-1.htm

        I'm not sure if you read Japanese (or the Chinese characters, though
        the differences get confusing), but here are some basic descriptions
        of what they are telling you to do:

        Put it on in the following order: Kosode, kanmuri, hitoe, sashinuki,
        and hou (noushi, ikan, etc.).

        For the white kosode, they mention having a white belt to go around.

        I don't know why the kanmuri goes on second. THat seems odd, but it
        is what I always see. It might be so that if you tie it on, the cords
        fall under the layers--I just don't know.

        The Hitoe has a picture, showing how to fold it a little in the front
        and back. If you've sized it correctly, this will keep it crisp.
        Hmmm, I don't seem to have any photos of the pleating, but here are
        photos of a modern hitoe:
        http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613209785264/

        Regarding the sashinuki, you can actually tie it closed one of several
        ways--tie it at the calf, tie it at the ankle, or have long ties that
        come up internally:

        http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3263730076/in/set-72157613213018302/

        (and here's how to tie that one on the inside):

        http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3262869503/in/set-72157613213018302/

        This is the most comfortable way to do it, and it means you can adjust
        the height for different people, so it is what I usually recommend.

        They also show how to tie it closed:
        http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/kitsuke-1.htm

        BTW, it may be too late, but I've found that using something to
        stiffen the front and back of the sashinuki--just insert some kind of
        stiff material (paper is traditional, but light, light plastic might
        work if you are going to throw it in modern washer/dryer)--really
        helps with the look. Notice they are tying it in front first, then
        then back.

        Ah, and here's the page I was first looking for:
        http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/kitsuke-3.htm

        It has pictures for everthing. The big thing there is to note how
        there is a tie that goes around--in noushi this tie is integral to the
        garment, and in sokutai it is not. Anyway, you tie it closed, then
        adjust the front--basically getting the ran at the bottom to be even.
        Then you pull in the left and right sides under the waist cord. See
        third row, third picture--the sides are pulled in at the hems. Now
        pull the front down in the middle and tuck up the left and right sides
        under the waist cords--if you need to use a second cord for all this,
        you can--it can be hidden under the pouch of the noushi, I've found.
        You should now have a point in the front as shown. Tuck this point
        underneath, and you are ready to go!

        Oh, one more thing--the sleeves should be too long. You gather them
        in one or two folds (there are different schools on this) as shown in
        the penultimate photo on that page. This helps keep a crisp look to
        the garment.

        The first page also shows something similar, btw, but it is with
        drawings, not pictures, so it may be clearer what is going on.

        Does that help at all?


        -Ii
      • feikoi
        Thank you very much, everyone, for your informative responses! With the rush to make the outfit for today (yes, 48 hour sewing frenzies are bad for your
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 25, 2009
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          Thank you very much, everyone, for your informative responses!

          With the rush to make the outfit for today (yes, 48 hour sewing frenzies are bad for your health, I know) and my camera batteries dead, I don't have pictures yet of the outfit worn. Yet. I'll get to it, once I remake the ho. The one today was in a black sheer, which looked cool when it was behaving, and not splitting at the seams. Also, I had to skip a few steps in the panel hemming process due to time constraints. I love my serger.

          Ahem. Anyway. I didn't have any problems making the hakama, and any issues with the kosode/hitoe/akome were due to my hatred of arranging and sewing collars. I had a few construction issues with the ho though, largely due to proportions. Although I am 5'5", the dimensions in the Garb section's pdfs would have left the garment dragging on the ground, even belted up.

          I tried resizing (56" front panel went to 51", the back similarly resized, and the ran shortened to 14"), which may have worked. (Sheer fabric slips from belt ties. Grr.) But where on the body should the belt/top of the 'pocket' hit? Also, how far are the sleeves supposed to be sewn on men's garments? I vaguely recall "one foot from bottom of sleeve" mentioned somewhere for the ho, but I'm not sure if that was referring to the sleeve itself, or how far the body panels were sewn up the sides. (Or if I imagined it, which is quite possible after roundabout six hours of sleep in the past 48 hours.)

          When I get around to posting photos, I'll include all the things I /know/ I did wrong or sloppily, though I hope that with a little work, none of them are unwearable. :D

          Thank you again for all the help!
          Jamie


          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
          >
          > On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:26 AM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
          > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "feikoi" <feikoi@> wrote:
          > >> Typically I wear the garb of my Tang Chinese [female] persona, but for an upcoming event, I decided to wear something to correspond with my friend's Heian female persona. Specifically, I'm working on a variation of the ikan/noshi sugata so helpfully analysed on Mr. Bryant's website.
          > >
          > > Hopefully, Ii-dono will see this and respond because he does actually WEAR this stuff.
          > >
          > > I'm dashing out shortly to an event this weekend, but I do have a book in Japanese with photos of the stages of getting dressed that Ii-dono and his lady kindly added to my library. I'd be very happy to have a look on my return as it does include a man's court outfit.
          > >
          > > Yes on the koshi-himo! Bias tape (the size used as quilt binding) works dandy if you don't want to be tearing random strips of fabric to use.
          > >
          > > I do hope there will be pictures of the final result!
          >
          > I'm currently wandering around Seoul, and then off on another trip, so
          > I won't be back for a while, but Abe-hime may be able to help with
          > pictures next week.
          >
          > http://www.kariginu.jp is a great resource. In particular, here's the
          > stuff on the ikan no ho: http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/1-3.htm
          >
          > Also, here:
          >
          > http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/7-1.htm
          >
          > I'm not sure if you read Japanese (or the Chinese characters, though
          > the differences get confusing), but here are some basic descriptions
          > of what they are telling you to do:
          >
          > Put it on in the following order: Kosode, kanmuri, hitoe, sashinuki,
          > and hou (noushi, ikan, etc.).
          >
          > For the white kosode, they mention having a white belt to go around.
          >
          > I don't know why the kanmuri goes on second. THat seems odd, but it
          > is what I always see. It might be so that if you tie it on, the cords
          > fall under the layers--I just don't know.
          >
          > The Hitoe has a picture, showing how to fold it a little in the front
          > and back. If you've sized it correctly, this will keep it crisp.
          > Hmmm, I don't seem to have any photos of the pleating, but here are
          > photos of a modern hitoe:
          > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613209785264/
          >
          > Regarding the sashinuki, you can actually tie it closed one of several
          > ways--tie it at the calf, tie it at the ankle, or have long ties that
          > come up internally:
          >
          > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3263730076/in/set-72157613213018302/
          >
          > (and here's how to tie that one on the inside):
          >
          > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3262869503/in/set-72157613213018302/
          >
          > This is the most comfortable way to do it, and it means you can adjust
          > the height for different people, so it is what I usually recommend.
          >
          > They also show how to tie it closed:
          > http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/kitsuke-1.htm
          >
          > BTW, it may be too late, but I've found that using something to
          > stiffen the front and back of the sashinuki--just insert some kind of
          > stiff material (paper is traditional, but light, light plastic might
          > work if you are going to throw it in modern washer/dryer)--really
          > helps with the look. Notice they are tying it in front first, then
          > then back.
          >
          > Ah, and here's the page I was first looking for:
          > http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/kitsuke-3.htm
          >
          > It has pictures for everthing. The big thing there is to note how
          > there is a tie that goes around--in noushi this tie is integral to the
          > garment, and in sokutai it is not. Anyway, you tie it closed, then
          > adjust the front--basically getting the ran at the bottom to be even.
          > Then you pull in the left and right sides under the waist cord. See
          > third row, third picture--the sides are pulled in at the hems. Now
          > pull the front down in the middle and tuck up the left and right sides
          > under the waist cords--if you need to use a second cord for all this,
          > you can--it can be hidden under the pouch of the noushi, I've found.
          > You should now have a point in the front as shown. Tuck this point
          > underneath, and you are ready to go!
          >
          > Oh, one more thing--the sleeves should be too long. You gather them
          > in one or two folds (there are different schools on this) as shown in
          > the penultimate photo on that page. This helps keep a crisp look to
          > the garment.
          >
          > The first page also shows something similar, btw, but it is with
          > drawings, not pictures, so it may be clearer what is going on.
          >
          > Does that help at all?
          >
          >
          > -Ii
          >
        • JL Badgley
          ... The proportions can really get you. I need to fix the pattern I made some time back, actually, as I took the wrong approach. ... Wait, 56 front panel?
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 26, 2009
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            On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 10:56 AM, feikoi <feikoi@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ahem. Anyway. I didn't have any problems making the hakama, and any issues with the kosode/hitoe/akome were due to my hatred of arranging and sewing collars. I had a few construction issues with the ho though, largely due to proportions. Although I am 5'5", the dimensions in the Garb section's pdfs would have left the garment dragging on the ground, even belted up.
            >
            The proportions can really get you. I need to fix the pattern I made
            some time back, actually, as I took the wrong approach.

            > I tried resizing (56" front panel went to 51", the back similarly resized, and the ran shortened to 14"), which may have worked. (Sheer fabric slips from belt ties. Grr.) But where on the body should the belt/top of the 'pocket' hit? Also, how far are the sleeves supposed to be sewn on men's garments? I vaguely recall "one foot from bottom of sleeve" mentioned somewhere for the ho, but I'm not sure if that was referring to the sleeve itself, or how far the body panels were sewn up the sides. (Or if I imagined it, which is quite possible after roundabout six hours of sleep in the past 48 hours.)

            Wait, 56" front panel? You are talking about length, right?

            Let me lay out about where things should stand. First, the back is
            critical. As long as that works, everything else can be worked around
            it. For the Heian period, the top of the pouch should be at your
            waist--where you would otherwise belt it.

            Check this out:
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613346980664/

            Specifically, here:
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/567282585/in/set-72157613346980664/

            Abe-hime made this (out of green linen, of all things--looked great,
            wore wonderfully. Not period for that garment, but great for a hot
            day). See the hakoe (pouch) in back? It could probably stand to be
            about two to three inches lower. Oh, btw, make note of that extra
            fold there, too--it really makes it in the back. Probably an inch to
            two inches. Sorry, but my books are at home.

            The ran, however, is just about right, imho. Heian period, remember,
            things tend to be made more for sitting in than for standing.

            Here are more photos specifically on the hoeki-no-ho:
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613546228486/

            Here's a 20th century hou (technically an ikan no hou--same fabric,
            but worn with kanmuri and uwanobakama [uenobakama]) that you can also
            use for comparison.

            As for the opening on the sides--I seem to recall 5~10", but no more.
            Basically, it is open from a little above the hakoe, and then the
            sleeves attach. The important thing is that you don't want to be
            pulling on the sleeves too much when you pleat the front--that is
            probably going to happen regardless of what you do, but try to avoid
            it if possible.

            Sorry I'm rambling. I'm trying to do this off the top of my head
            right now, from an airport. Ideally, I'd sit down and show you this,
            but I don't think that will be doable any time soon, unfortunately.

            Oh, and my first hou looked wonderful laid out on the floor--wearing
            it was something else altogether. Sigh. This is (unfortunately) how
            we learn without someone to show us in person.

            -Ii
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