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Re: [SCA-JML] Heian men's court outfit

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  • Jeanel Walker
    on my seven layer dress I took the idea from the kabuki and did some large stitching around the collar behind the neck and the upper part of chest ...the dress
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 24, 2009
      on my seven layer dress I took the idea from the kabuki and did some large stitching around the collar behind the neck and the upper part of chest ...the dress then could flow in the wind but all the aliment stay in place . it also helped when putting it on...i put all of them on at one time later in the day pulled out the large basting type stitch making sure i had a finger hole loop on the end to pull with and and the other end long enough to be into a half bow. It worked out well. tho I still have to fix the sleeves.

      http://s249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Garb/

      I hope the idea helps or gives you a better one!!!


      May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
      Jeanel Walker aka Eilionora "Takinaga" of Kisimull
      http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Takinagadevisesm.jpg
      http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg208/brytephyre/Eilionoriadevicesm.jpg


      --- On Fri, 4/24/09, feikoi <feikoi@...> wrote:
      From: feikoi <feikoi@...>
      Subject: [SCA-JML] Heian men's court outfit
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 3:09 AM

















      Hajimemashite! Douzo yoroshiku.



      Typically I wear the garb of my Tang Chinese [female] persona, but for an upcoming event, I decided to wear something to correspond with my friend's Heian female persona. Specifically, I'm working on a variation of the ikan/noshi sugata so helpfully analysed on Mr. Bryant's website.



      I've been able to construct the garments so far (crossing my fingers on the hoeki-no-ho/ noshi, though), but that leaves one question: How do I wear all these layers?



      I know the kosode/juban should be tucked into the hakama, and I recall seeing a reference to pleating the back of the hitoe when tucking into the hakama. Are the front panels of the hitoe also tucked in? What about the akome (the layer above the hitoe)?



      And how the heck does one get the collars to stay nice and crossed? In Chinese garb, there are small ties at the sides to keep simple robes crossed, and belts over robes if necessary. I've never heard of that with Japanese garb (ancient or modern, though I'm only familiar with women's); are koshihimo to be used to hold the under-layer' s collars in place?



      (Also a bit confused at the 'pocket' on the back of the noshi, but I'm sure I'll figure that out once I start constructing it.)



      Sorry for all the questions, but I haven't been able to find a dressing guide for men yet.



      Thank you for your time,

      Jamie































      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • wodeford
      ... Hopefully, Ii-dono will see this and respond because he does actually WEAR this stuff. I m dashing out shortly to an event this weekend, but I do have a
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 24, 2009
        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "feikoi" <feikoi@...> wrote:
        > Typically I wear the garb of my Tang Chinese [female] persona, but for an upcoming event, I decided to wear something to correspond with my friend's Heian female persona. Specifically, I'm working on a variation of the ikan/noshi sugata so helpfully analysed on Mr. Bryant's website.

        Hopefully, Ii-dono will see this and respond because he does actually WEAR this stuff.

        I'm dashing out shortly to an event this weekend, but I do have a book in Japanese with photos of the stages of getting dressed that Ii-dono and his lady kindly added to my library. I'd be very happy to have a look on my return as it does include a man's court outfit.

        Yes on the koshi-himo! Bias tape (the size used as quilt binding) works dandy if you don't want to be tearing random strips of fabric to use.

        I do hope there will be pictures of the final result!

        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdom
      • JL Badgley
        ... I m currently wandering around Seoul, and then off on another trip, so I won t be back for a while, but Abe-hime may be able to help with pictures next
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 24, 2009
          On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:26 AM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "feikoi" <feikoi@...> wrote:
          >> Typically I wear the garb of my Tang Chinese [female] persona, but for an upcoming event, I decided to wear something to correspond with my friend's Heian female persona. Specifically, I'm working on a variation of the ikan/noshi sugata so helpfully analysed on Mr. Bryant's website.
          >
          > Hopefully, Ii-dono will see this and respond because he does actually WEAR this stuff.
          >
          > I'm dashing out shortly to an event this weekend, but I do have a book in Japanese with photos of the stages of getting dressed that Ii-dono and his lady kindly added to my library. I'd be very happy to have a look on my return as it does include a man's court outfit.
          >
          > Yes on the koshi-himo! Bias tape (the size used as quilt binding) works dandy if you don't want to be tearing random strips of fabric to use.
          >
          > I do hope there will be pictures of the final result!

          I'm currently wandering around Seoul, and then off on another trip, so
          I won't be back for a while, but Abe-hime may be able to help with
          pictures next week.

          http://www.kariginu.jp is a great resource. In particular, here's the
          stuff on the ikan no ho: http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/1-3.htm

          Also, here:

          http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/7-1.htm

          I'm not sure if you read Japanese (or the Chinese characters, though
          the differences get confusing), but here are some basic descriptions
          of what they are telling you to do:

          Put it on in the following order: Kosode, kanmuri, hitoe, sashinuki,
          and hou (noushi, ikan, etc.).

          For the white kosode, they mention having a white belt to go around.

          I don't know why the kanmuri goes on second. THat seems odd, but it
          is what I always see. It might be so that if you tie it on, the cords
          fall under the layers--I just don't know.

          The Hitoe has a picture, showing how to fold it a little in the front
          and back. If you've sized it correctly, this will keep it crisp.
          Hmmm, I don't seem to have any photos of the pleating, but here are
          photos of a modern hitoe:
          http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613209785264/

          Regarding the sashinuki, you can actually tie it closed one of several
          ways--tie it at the calf, tie it at the ankle, or have long ties that
          come up internally:

          http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3263730076/in/set-72157613213018302/

          (and here's how to tie that one on the inside):

          http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3262869503/in/set-72157613213018302/

          This is the most comfortable way to do it, and it means you can adjust
          the height for different people, so it is what I usually recommend.

          They also show how to tie it closed:
          http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/kitsuke-1.htm

          BTW, it may be too late, but I've found that using something to
          stiffen the front and back of the sashinuki--just insert some kind of
          stiff material (paper is traditional, but light, light plastic might
          work if you are going to throw it in modern washer/dryer)--really
          helps with the look. Notice they are tying it in front first, then
          then back.

          Ah, and here's the page I was first looking for:
          http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/kitsuke-3.htm

          It has pictures for everthing. The big thing there is to note how
          there is a tie that goes around--in noushi this tie is integral to the
          garment, and in sokutai it is not. Anyway, you tie it closed, then
          adjust the front--basically getting the ran at the bottom to be even.
          Then you pull in the left and right sides under the waist cord. See
          third row, third picture--the sides are pulled in at the hems. Now
          pull the front down in the middle and tuck up the left and right sides
          under the waist cords--if you need to use a second cord for all this,
          you can--it can be hidden under the pouch of the noushi, I've found.
          You should now have a point in the front as shown. Tuck this point
          underneath, and you are ready to go!

          Oh, one more thing--the sleeves should be too long. You gather them
          in one or two folds (there are different schools on this) as shown in
          the penultimate photo on that page. This helps keep a crisp look to
          the garment.

          The first page also shows something similar, btw, but it is with
          drawings, not pictures, so it may be clearer what is going on.

          Does that help at all?


          -Ii
        • feikoi
          Thank you very much, everyone, for your informative responses! With the rush to make the outfit for today (yes, 48 hour sewing frenzies are bad for your
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 25, 2009
            Thank you very much, everyone, for your informative responses!

            With the rush to make the outfit for today (yes, 48 hour sewing frenzies are bad for your health, I know) and my camera batteries dead, I don't have pictures yet of the outfit worn. Yet. I'll get to it, once I remake the ho. The one today was in a black sheer, which looked cool when it was behaving, and not splitting at the seams. Also, I had to skip a few steps in the panel hemming process due to time constraints. I love my serger.

            Ahem. Anyway. I didn't have any problems making the hakama, and any issues with the kosode/hitoe/akome were due to my hatred of arranging and sewing collars. I had a few construction issues with the ho though, largely due to proportions. Although I am 5'5", the dimensions in the Garb section's pdfs would have left the garment dragging on the ground, even belted up.

            I tried resizing (56" front panel went to 51", the back similarly resized, and the ran shortened to 14"), which may have worked. (Sheer fabric slips from belt ties. Grr.) But where on the body should the belt/top of the 'pocket' hit? Also, how far are the sleeves supposed to be sewn on men's garments? I vaguely recall "one foot from bottom of sleeve" mentioned somewhere for the ho, but I'm not sure if that was referring to the sleeve itself, or how far the body panels were sewn up the sides. (Or if I imagined it, which is quite possible after roundabout six hours of sleep in the past 48 hours.)

            When I get around to posting photos, I'll include all the things I /know/ I did wrong or sloppily, though I hope that with a little work, none of them are unwearable. :D

            Thank you again for all the help!
            Jamie


            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:26 AM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
            > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "feikoi" <feikoi@> wrote:
            > >> Typically I wear the garb of my Tang Chinese [female] persona, but for an upcoming event, I decided to wear something to correspond with my friend's Heian female persona. Specifically, I'm working on a variation of the ikan/noshi sugata so helpfully analysed on Mr. Bryant's website.
            > >
            > > Hopefully, Ii-dono will see this and respond because he does actually WEAR this stuff.
            > >
            > > I'm dashing out shortly to an event this weekend, but I do have a book in Japanese with photos of the stages of getting dressed that Ii-dono and his lady kindly added to my library. I'd be very happy to have a look on my return as it does include a man's court outfit.
            > >
            > > Yes on the koshi-himo! Bias tape (the size used as quilt binding) works dandy if you don't want to be tearing random strips of fabric to use.
            > >
            > > I do hope there will be pictures of the final result!
            >
            > I'm currently wandering around Seoul, and then off on another trip, so
            > I won't be back for a while, but Abe-hime may be able to help with
            > pictures next week.
            >
            > http://www.kariginu.jp is a great resource. In particular, here's the
            > stuff on the ikan no ho: http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/1-3.htm
            >
            > Also, here:
            >
            > http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/7-1.htm
            >
            > I'm not sure if you read Japanese (or the Chinese characters, though
            > the differences get confusing), but here are some basic descriptions
            > of what they are telling you to do:
            >
            > Put it on in the following order: Kosode, kanmuri, hitoe, sashinuki,
            > and hou (noushi, ikan, etc.).
            >
            > For the white kosode, they mention having a white belt to go around.
            >
            > I don't know why the kanmuri goes on second. THat seems odd, but it
            > is what I always see. It might be so that if you tie it on, the cords
            > fall under the layers--I just don't know.
            >
            > The Hitoe has a picture, showing how to fold it a little in the front
            > and back. If you've sized it correctly, this will keep it crisp.
            > Hmmm, I don't seem to have any photos of the pleating, but here are
            > photos of a modern hitoe:
            > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613209785264/
            >
            > Regarding the sashinuki, you can actually tie it closed one of several
            > ways--tie it at the calf, tie it at the ankle, or have long ties that
            > come up internally:
            >
            > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3263730076/in/set-72157613213018302/
            >
            > (and here's how to tie that one on the inside):
            >
            > http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3262869503/in/set-72157613213018302/
            >
            > This is the most comfortable way to do it, and it means you can adjust
            > the height for different people, so it is what I usually recommend.
            >
            > They also show how to tie it closed:
            > http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/kitsuke-1.htm
            >
            > BTW, it may be too late, but I've found that using something to
            > stiffen the front and back of the sashinuki--just insert some kind of
            > stiff material (paper is traditional, but light, light plastic might
            > work if you are going to throw it in modern washer/dryer)--really
            > helps with the look. Notice they are tying it in front first, then
            > then back.
            >
            > Ah, and here's the page I was first looking for:
            > http://www.kariginu.jp/kikata/kitsuke-3.htm
            >
            > It has pictures for everthing. The big thing there is to note how
            > there is a tie that goes around--in noushi this tie is integral to the
            > garment, and in sokutai it is not. Anyway, you tie it closed, then
            > adjust the front--basically getting the ran at the bottom to be even.
            > Then you pull in the left and right sides under the waist cord. See
            > third row, third picture--the sides are pulled in at the hems. Now
            > pull the front down in the middle and tuck up the left and right sides
            > under the waist cords--if you need to use a second cord for all this,
            > you can--it can be hidden under the pouch of the noushi, I've found.
            > You should now have a point in the front as shown. Tuck this point
            > underneath, and you are ready to go!
            >
            > Oh, one more thing--the sleeves should be too long. You gather them
            > in one or two folds (there are different schools on this) as shown in
            > the penultimate photo on that page. This helps keep a crisp look to
            > the garment.
            >
            > The first page also shows something similar, btw, but it is with
            > drawings, not pictures, so it may be clearer what is going on.
            >
            > Does that help at all?
            >
            >
            > -Ii
            >
          • JL Badgley
            ... The proportions can really get you. I need to fix the pattern I made some time back, actually, as I took the wrong approach. ... Wait, 56 front panel?
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 26, 2009
              On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 10:56 AM, feikoi <feikoi@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ahem. Anyway. I didn't have any problems making the hakama, and any issues with the kosode/hitoe/akome were due to my hatred of arranging and sewing collars. I had a few construction issues with the ho though, largely due to proportions. Although I am 5'5", the dimensions in the Garb section's pdfs would have left the garment dragging on the ground, even belted up.
              >
              The proportions can really get you. I need to fix the pattern I made
              some time back, actually, as I took the wrong approach.

              > I tried resizing (56" front panel went to 51", the back similarly resized, and the ran shortened to 14"), which may have worked. (Sheer fabric slips from belt ties. Grr.) But where on the body should the belt/top of the 'pocket' hit? Also, how far are the sleeves supposed to be sewn on men's garments? I vaguely recall "one foot from bottom of sleeve" mentioned somewhere for the ho, but I'm not sure if that was referring to the sleeve itself, or how far the body panels were sewn up the sides. (Or if I imagined it, which is quite possible after roundabout six hours of sleep in the past 48 hours.)

              Wait, 56" front panel? You are talking about length, right?

              Let me lay out about where things should stand. First, the back is
              critical. As long as that works, everything else can be worked around
              it. For the Heian period, the top of the pouch should be at your
              waist--where you would otherwise belt it.

              Check this out:
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613346980664/

              Specifically, here:
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/567282585/in/set-72157613346980664/

              Abe-hime made this (out of green linen, of all things--looked great,
              wore wonderfully. Not period for that garment, but great for a hot
              day). See the hakoe (pouch) in back? It could probably stand to be
              about two to three inches lower. Oh, btw, make note of that extra
              fold there, too--it really makes it in the back. Probably an inch to
              two inches. Sorry, but my books are at home.

              The ran, however, is just about right, imho. Heian period, remember,
              things tend to be made more for sitting in than for standing.

              Here are more photos specifically on the hoeki-no-ho:
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/sets/72157613546228486/

              Here's a 20th century hou (technically an ikan no hou--same fabric,
              but worn with kanmuri and uwanobakama [uenobakama]) that you can also
              use for comparison.

              As for the opening on the sides--I seem to recall 5~10", but no more.
              Basically, it is open from a little above the hakoe, and then the
              sleeves attach. The important thing is that you don't want to be
              pulling on the sleeves too much when you pleat the front--that is
              probably going to happen regardless of what you do, but try to avoid
              it if possible.

              Sorry I'm rambling. I'm trying to do this off the top of my head
              right now, from an airport. Ideally, I'd sit down and show you this,
              but I don't think that will be doable any time soon, unfortunately.

              Oh, and my first hou looked wonderful laid out on the floor--wearing
              it was something else altogether. Sigh. This is (unfortunately) how
              we learn without someone to show us in person.

              -Ii
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