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Questions for Momoyama outfit

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  • Samantha Fina
    Hi!! I ve been in the SCA for a while and got interested in Japanese garb a few years back, particularly from the Momoyama period. I picked up several books
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 8 9:22 AM
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      Hi!!

      I've been in the SCA for a while and got interested in Japanese garb a few years back, particularly from the Momoyama period. I picked up several books on Japanese garb, joined this list and posted some questions, and even bought material for my first outfit. Then one thing or another came up, and I never got around to actually making that outfit. Fast forward about 5 years (yeeesh, I can't believe it's been that long!), and I've decided to finally get off my behind and make that Japanese outfit to wear to EK Crown Tourney next month. :)

      Because it's been so long, I'm more or less starting my research over from scratch. I'm in the process of going through my Japanese books again, and I also found Saionji-hime's website the other day. I do still have some questions, which I hope you fine gentles can help me with:

      1. How heretical would it be to leave the back of the kosode as one panel? I know that the proper way is to construct the body of the kosode out of 2 16-17" migoro sewn together in back. But I'm considering cutting the migoro apart only up to the shoulder line in front, thus leaving the back as one solid piece. The reason is that in an attempt to replicate the elaborately embroidered, dyed, & painted material used in Momoyama kosode (since I don't have the time or talent to do that level of work myself), I bought printed cotton quilting fabric with a large design (koi swimming in a stream). If I put a seam up the back of the kosode, the print will be marred.

      2. Does the innermost kosode layer have to be white? I had read that while the innermost layer was usually white, in some periods it didn't have to be. I do have material for up to 3 layers underneath the koi-print outer kosode--white, light green, and dark orange. Also, where besides the collar will those layers show? I only have a small amount of the dark orange, so I will have to fake that layer by attaching strips to the green in the appropriate places.

      3. Is the narrow obi wrapped just once or several times around the waist before being knotted in front?

      Thank you in advance for your assistance,

      Genevra d'Angouleme
    • wodeford
      ... It won t hang quite right. Now, I cut kosode the way you propose sometimes and I put in a false back seam, so it hangs properly. Is there any way you can
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 8 10:55 AM
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Samantha Fina" <genevra1676@...> wrote:

        > 1. How heretical would it be to leave the back of the kosode as one panel?

        It won't hang quite right. Now, I cut kosode the way you propose sometimes and I put in a false back seam, so it hangs properly. Is there any way you can try to match your print?

        > 2. Does the innermost kosode layer have to be white?

        It usually is. Layers will show at your hem and the backs of your sleeves.

        3. Is the narrow obi wrapped just once or several times around the waist before being knotted in front?

        Up to you. I find that long enough to go twice around, knot and hang to the knees works very well for me.

        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdom
      • JL Badgley
        ... Ditto. I usually put in a false seam because it is easier than cutting and resewing (especially since that would require hemming--which they wouldn t
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 8 3:44 PM
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          On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 12:55 AM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Samantha Fina" <genevra1676@...> wrote:
          >
          >> 1.  How heretical would it be to leave the back of the kosode as one panel?
          >
          > It won't hang quite right. Now, I cut kosode the way you propose sometimes and I put in a false back seam, so it hangs properly. Is there any way you can try to match your print?

          Ditto. I usually put in a false seam because it is easier than
          cutting and resewing (especially since that would require
          hemming--which they wouldn't necessarily have worried about in the
          original).

          Know that, when things were put together in period, it was not
          uncommon for there to be a small mismatch at the seam. Sometimes
          people dyed to the seam, and sometimes they just did what they could.
          I've seen some outfits where they barely worried about it.

          >> 2.  Does the innermost kosode layer have to be white?
          >
          > It usually is. Layers will show at your hem and the backs of your sleeves.

          Usually, this is correct. The difference tends to be with men and
          peasant garments (the latter because there is often only one layer at
          all, and the sleeves are usually tubular, not the classic curved
          rectangular look).

          >  3.  Is the narrow obi wrapped just once or several times around the waist before being knotted in front?
          >
          > Up to you. I find that long enough to go twice around, knot and hang to the knees works very well for me.

          I think you will find that wrapping merely once will not be as secure
          as going around the body at least twice.


          -Ii
        • onewringgold
          By a false seam, do you mean basically taking the center of the back panel (if it s one piece) and turning it under slightly like you would a flat-felled seam?
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 10 4:19 AM
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            By a false seam, do you mean basically taking the center of the back panel (if it's one piece) and turning it under slightly like you would a flat-felled seam? Because I must admit I've been guilty of this heresy as well, not realizing it made a difference in how the garment hangs on the body.

            Kajiyama Shinobu
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: JL Badgley
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 6:44 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Questions for Momoyama outfit





            On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 12:55 AM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Samantha Fina" <genevra1676@...> wrote:
            >
            >> 1. How heretical would it be to leave the back of the kosode as one panel?
            >
            > It won't hang quite right. Now, I cut kosode the way you propose sometimes and I put in a false back seam, so it hangs properly. Is there any way you can try to match your print?

            Ditto. I usually put in a false seam because it is easier than
            cutting and resewing (especially since that would require
            hemming--which they wouldn't necessarily have worried about in the
            original).

            Know that, when things were put together in period, it was not
            uncommon for there to be a small mismatch at the seam. Sometimes
            people dyed to the seam, and sometimes they just did what they could.
            I've seen some outfits where they barely worried about it.

            >> 2. Does the innermost kosode layer have to be white?
            >
            > It usually is. Layers will show at your hem and the backs of your sleeves.

            Usually, this is correct. The difference tends to be with men and
            peasant garments (the latter because there is often only one layer at
            all, and the sleeves are usually tubular, not the classic curved
            rectangular look).

            > 3. Is the narrow obi wrapped just once or several times around the waist before being knotted in front?
            >
            > Up to you. I find that long enough to go twice around, knot and hang to the knees works very well for me.

            I think you will find that wrapping merely once will not be as secure
            as going around the body at least twice.

            -Ii



            ____________________________________________________________
            Earn your associates degree. Find a school near you.
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Samantha Fina
            Would taking the back panel in more at the side seams help with the not-hanging-right issue? I don t know if I have enough material to match up the print if I
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 14 6:13 AM
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              Would taking the back panel in more at the side seams help with the not-hanging-right issue? I don't know if I have enough material to match up the print if I put in a back seam, real or false. Though I suppose if I put in a fairly teeny false seam the mismatch won't be too bad . . .

              Thanks for all the answers to my questions. I hopefully have enough of the dark orange material to make a false layer at the appropriate edges of the kosode. And I thought that the obi did get wrapped at least twice, but I wanted confirmation from you far more knowledgeable gentles. :) Thanks again,

              Genevra

              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "onewringgold" <onewringgold@...> wrote:
              >
              > By a false seam, do you mean basically taking the center of the back panel (if it's one piece) and turning it under slightly like you would a flat-felled seam? Because I must admit I've been guilty of this heresy as well, not realizing it made a difference in how the garment hangs on the body.
              >
              > Kajiyama Shinobu
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: JL Badgley
              > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 6:44 PM
              > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Questions for Momoyama outfit
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 12:55 AM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
              > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Samantha Fina" <genevra1676@> wrote:
              > >
              > >> 1. How heretical would it be to leave the back of the kosode as one panel?
              > >
              > > It won't hang quite right. Now, I cut kosode the way you propose sometimes and I put in a false back seam, so it hangs properly. Is there any way you can try to match your print?
              >
              > Ditto. I usually put in a false seam because it is easier than
              > cutting and resewing (especially since that would require
              > hemming--which they wouldn't necessarily have worried about in the
              > original).
              >
              > Know that, when things were put together in period, it was not
              > uncommon for there to be a small mismatch at the seam. Sometimes
              > people dyed to the seam, and sometimes they just did what they could.
              > I've seen some outfits where they barely worried about it.
              >
              > >> 2. Does the innermost kosode layer have to be white?
              > >
              > > It usually is. Layers will show at your hem and the backs of your sleeves.
              >
              > Usually, this is correct. The difference tends to be with men and
              > peasant garments (the latter because there is often only one layer at
              > all, and the sleeves are usually tubular, not the classic curved
              > rectangular look).
              >
              > > 3. Is the narrow obi wrapped just once or several times around the waist before being knotted in front?
              > >
              > > Up to you. I find that long enough to go twice around, knot and hang to the knees works very well for me.
              >
              > I think you will find that wrapping merely once will not be as secure
              > as going around the body at least twice.
              >
              > -Ii
            • wodeford
              ... My profound apologies for not responding to these sooner. I have been offline for a bit. All you need to do for a false back seam is fold the double-width
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 17 8:50 AM
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "onewringgold" <onewringgold@...> wrote:
                >
                > By a false seam, do you mean basically taking the center of the back panel (if it's one piece) and turning it under slightly like you would a flat-felled seam?

                My profound apologies for not responding to these sooner. I have been offline for a bit.

                All you need to do for a false back seam is fold the double-width back panel in half (outer side of the fabric inside of the fold) and use a line of running stitch to form the seam. The whole point is to save you from having to use a more complicated seam finishing treatment, flat-felling included.

                For Genevra-hime, taking in the sides will only take in the sides of your garment. Your false back seam can use as narrow a seam allowance as you can manage to make it - mine are often a total of 5/16" sewn by hand. If you press your fold first and use a machine, you could conceivably go even narrower.

                Good luck with your projects.

                Saionji no Hanae
                West Kingdom
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