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Re: Miko

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  • saburoutadamori
    sorry about being so late in this post, but what about this picture - http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm it seems similar in the least to
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 1, 2008
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      sorry about being so late in this post, but what about this picture -
      http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm
      it seems similar in the least to me.




      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > On Nov 25, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Kelly Thurman Peters wrote:
      > > Can anyone tell me how far back this sort of miko costume would
      date
      > > to? and what are the names of the pieces?
      > >
      > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/Asojinja_Miko.jpg
      >
      >
      > That's a great picture, and shows a lot of detail. I believe it's
      a
      > better image of the modern miko costumes that Jeanel-dono posted a
      > week ago.
      >
      > I can give you conflicting answers on this, based on the better
      > quality image.
      >
      > The garments are, roughly, a men's hitatare sugata worn
      incorrectly.
      > Here's what it looks like worn by a man properly:
      > <http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm>
      > As menswear, the outfit dates back to bushi-class Heian wear.
      > In your picture, there's the red hakama, two white kosode (which
      you
      > can't really see other than at the collars), and a white
      (printed?)
      > hitatare (with red cord ties) with partial red lining in the
      sleeves
      > and worn un-tucked. I don't believe this is an SCA-period style.
      >
      > A simpler outfit for shrine maidens comprised of red nagabakama
      (long
      > hakama) and a white kosode. That's the basis of many court women's
      > Heian period clothes; in period this would be worn under several
      > additional robes (uchiki and/or hitoe).
      > <http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/7.htm>
      > <http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/8.htm>
      > <http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/9.htm>
      > I believe (but don't have my sources nearby to verify) that this
      > outfit (formerly just an under-layer) became formal wear for
      shrine
      > attendants in the Kamakura period.
      >
      > There's a shirabyoshi dance costume that follows the same color
      > pattern that also dates to the Heian period:
      > <http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/26.htm>
      > Note that the top is very different; it's a translucent white
      suikan,
      > with a Chinese-style round "agekubi" collar instead of the cross-
      over
      > "tarikubi" collar of the hitatare and kosode. It's also ornamented
      > with pom-pon style seam reinforcements rather than printed
      graphics.
      > Under it is worn a red hitoe robe (and probably a white kosode
      below
      > that). The hakama are trailing nagabakama again.
      >
      > So... the conflicting answer:
      >
      > The individual garments are easily documentable to the Heian
      period.
      > There isn't supporting evidence, though, that they were made and
      worn
      > in this style in our period.
      >
      > andy
      >
    • Andrew T Trembley
      ... That link is no good, it s just a link to the index frame-set (unless you meant to link to Woman of the upper warrior class in formal costume ). Please
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 1, 2008
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        On Dec 1, 2008, at 6:17 PM, saburoutadamori wrote:
        > sorry about being so late in this post, but what about this picture -
        > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm
        > it seems similar in the least to me.

        That link is no good, it's just a link to the index frame-set (unless
        you meant to link to "Woman of the upper warrior class in formal
        costume"). Please post the name of the costume you're referring to if
        you can't post a link directly to the content.

        None of the women's tops in that section bears any resemblance to
        what's being worn in the original picture. Yes, two of the tops have o-
        sode (big open sleeves, a characteristic of the hitoe those women are
        wearing), but most are kosode styles, and none have open sides or the
        collar cords associated with a hitatare.

        (original image)
        >>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/Asojinja_Miko.jpg
        >>

        That top is very clearly a hitatare. O-sode, open sides, tarikubi
        (cross-over) collar, (red) cord collar ties, mid-thigh length. The
        large printed cranes are consistent with the ornamentation on a daimon
        (large crest) hitatare.

        andy
      • saburoutadamori
        Oops, sorry about that, I meant to link to Shinto priest of Izumo Shrine on missionary tour . It is near the bottom. ... picture - ... (unless ... if ...
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 4, 2008
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          Oops, sorry about that, I meant to link to "Shinto priest of Izumo
          Shrine on missionary tour". It is near the bottom.

          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > On Dec 1, 2008, at 6:17 PM, saburoutadamori wrote:
          > > sorry about being so late in this post, but what about this
          picture -
          > > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm
          > > it seems similar in the least to me.
          >
          > That link is no good, it's just a link to the index frame-set
          (unless
          > you meant to link to "Woman of the upper warrior class in formal
          > costume"). Please post the name of the costume you're referring to
          if
          > you can't post a link directly to the content.
          >
          > None of the women's tops in that section bears any resemblance to
          > what's being worn in the original picture. Yes, two of the tops
          have o-
          > sode (big open sleeves, a characteristic of the hitoe those women
          are
          > wearing), but most are kosode styles, and none have open sides or
          the
          > collar cords associated with a hitatare.
          >
          > (original image)
          > >>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/Asojinja_Miko.jpg
          > >>
          >
          > That top is very clearly a hitatare. O-sode, open sides, tarikubi
          > (cross-over) collar, (red) cord collar ties, mid-thigh length. The
          > large printed cranes are consistent with the ornamentation on a
          daimon
          > (large crest) hitatare.
          >
          > andy
          >
        • wodeford
          ... http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/34.htm is the direct link to the frame. If you scroll down, the museum includes line drawings of each outfit
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 4, 2008
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "saburoutadamori" <pirogoeth66@...> wrote:
            >
            > Oops, sorry about that, I meant to link to "Shinto priest of Izumo
            > Shrine on missionary tour". It is near the bottom.

            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/34.htm is the direct link
            to the frame. If you scroll down, the museum includes line drawings of
            each outfit with the Japanese names of the various garments. If you
            click on the "Explanation" button, it says this is a conjectural
            costume of the Shinto priestess credited with founding kabuki around
            1603 CE.

            Saionji no Hanae
            West Kingdom
          • Andrew T Trembley
            ... Aah, we run into translation problems, where they say priest and mean priestess. That s a problem with the Kyoto Costume Museum English website... The
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 4, 2008
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              saburoutadamori wrote:
              > Oops, sorry about that, I meant to link to "Shinto priest of Izumo
              > Shrine on missionary tour". It is near the bottom.
              >

              Aah, we run into translation problems, where they say "priest" and mean
              "priestess." That's a problem with the Kyoto Costume Museum English
              website...

              The top is referred to as a "chihaya" which, from what I can figure out,
              is an old traditional ritual garment. The problem is, again, from what I
              can figure out, the hitatare-style chihaya (and, structurally, that
              chihaya is a hitatare) is something that is, at best, 16th century and
              probably early 17th century.. Notes I've read on earlier chihaya
              describe them as ritual sashes or even ponchos (well, lengths of cloth
              with a hole cut for the head, longer in back than in front).

              And, as Saionji-dono points out, there's another problem with the Kyoto
              Costume Museum, and not ust the English site. While many of the costumes
              are modeled on extant garments or period artwork, some of the costumes
              are interpretations and extrapolations of text descriptions; no visual
              records or physical garments exist from period. You've got to read the
              descriptions.

              andy
            • saburoutadamori
              ahh, i am, unfortunately, still getting good at this. thank you though trembley-dono. ... Izumo ... mean ... out, ... what I ... and ... cloth ... Kyoto ...
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 7, 2008
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                ahh, i am, unfortunately, still getting good at this. thank you
                though trembley-dono.

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > saburoutadamori wrote:
                > > Oops, sorry about that, I meant to link to "Shinto priest of
                Izumo
                > > Shrine on missionary tour". It is near the bottom.
                > >
                >
                > Aah, we run into translation problems, where they say "priest" and
                mean
                > "priestess." That's a problem with the Kyoto Costume Museum English
                > website...
                >
                > The top is referred to as a "chihaya" which, from what I can figure
                out,
                > is an old traditional ritual garment. The problem is, again, from
                what I
                > can figure out, the hitatare-style chihaya (and, structurally, that
                > chihaya is a hitatare) is something that is, at best, 16th century
                and
                > probably early 17th century.. Notes I've read on earlier chihaya
                > describe them as ritual sashes or even ponchos (well, lengths of
                cloth
                > with a hole cut for the head, longer in back than in front).
                >
                > And, as Saionji-dono points out, there's another problem with the
                Kyoto
                > Costume Museum, and not ust the English site. While many of the
                costumes
                > are modeled on extant garments or period artwork, some of the
                costumes
                > are interpretations and extrapolations of text descriptions; no
                visual
                > records or physical garments exist from period. You've got to read
                the
                > descriptions.
                >
                > andy
                >
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