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Re: Question

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  • wodeford
    ... Yes. For example, here, with formal and semi-formal hitatare: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tatsumechan" <kanamori.tatsume@...>
      wrote:

      > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
      > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

      Yes.
      For example, here, with formal and semi-formal hitatare:
      http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
      http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
      http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/19.htm

      As opposed to these example, in which the hakama himo match the rest
      of the hakama:
      http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm
      http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/27.htm

      One of the reasons you don't see much of this in the SCA is because of
      the whole white-belt-reserved-for-chivalry thing.

      Saionji no Hanae
      West Kingdom
    • Anthony Bryant
      ... Yup. It s the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white ties. But duplicating them looks like you re wearing a white belt. Effingham
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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        On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:42 PM, tatsumechan wrote:

        >
        > >
        > > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
        > > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
        > > misinterpreting what they are seeing.
        >
        > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
        > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?
        >
        Yup.

        It's the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white
        ties. But duplicating them looks like you're wearing a white belt.


        Effingham
      • Leonard, Elizabeth A. @ Sacramento
        Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in Golden Rivers you speak of... Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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          Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in Golden
          Rivers you speak of...


          Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA personas
          got bored with being European. The garb started to feel like a T-shirt
          and jeans. The cultural stuff seemed to be shared only by snooty folks
          who liked to point out how little we knew. It wasn't fun. We decided
          to become the first Japanese house we'd heard of: The Fishing Village.
          We felt a new freedom- freedom to be silly with our personas. We
          invented "Butt Sumo", the office of "Suishi" and "the Ninja Closet". We
          aspired to have humble, practical garb that was easy to sew and Japanese
          garb really fit the bill. Because we didn't feel like we were being
          "watched" by peers, we felt free to research new stuff and try things
          out. We grew in numbers. As our research base grew, we decided to
          become Clan Hosokawa. A division started to slowly grow- those who
          wanted to research for more cultural/period accuracy and recognition by
          the mainstream SCA and those who clung to the specialness of our "inside
          joke" and humble, silly village. The lord of the house and I were going
          through our own divisions and in 2004 we broke up. I retired as lady of
          the clan, but the new lady of the clan didn't have the same
          leadership-leanings. The lord became lost. I moved to Oertha. The
          clan slowly crumbled and a new lord of the clan stepped up. Since I
          have moved back from Oertha, I have kept my Hosokawa name, but am much
          more involved with the fencing guild than the remaining Clan Hosokawa.
          We are still friends.


          You might see Takeshi or Sora at the heavy fighter practice at Gather on
          Wednesday nights- they are the leaders of Clan Hosokawa.


          -Yukiko Hosokawa (Hosokawa Yukiko)


          Sacramento group?
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/24514;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM201Mm
          kwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAz
          I0NTE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjM1NzQ0NTc->


          Posted by: "Horatius at the Bridge" horatius314@...
          <mailto:horatius314@...?Subject= Re%3ASacramento%20group%3F>
          yamazakigoro <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yamazakigoro>


          Wed Oct 8, 2008 5:09 pm (PDT)


          Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area.
          I was wondering if they were still around.

          If someone from that group is still around, could they please contact
          me.
          Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and
          absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeanel Walker
          so you cant be formal is what your saying? because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie Am I understanding this right? Change is in the heart... age
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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            so you cant be formal is what your saying?
            because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
            Am I understanding this right?

            Change is in the heart... age is in the mind... Beauty and or truth is in the eye of the beholder....But Kindness is Eternal.
            Jeanel Walker


            --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
            From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 12:11 PM













            On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:42 PM, tatsumechan wrote:



            >

            > >

            > > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the

            > > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is

            > > misinterpreting what they are seeing.

            >

            > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the

            > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

            >

            Yup.



            It's the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white

            ties. But duplicating them looks like you're wearing a white belt.



            Effingham



























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Horatius at the Bridge
            This is truly a sad tale. Especially now that I have returned to the area after my wanderings. (Adenvelt was hot, Northshield was cold. An Tir was... An Tir.)
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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              This is truly a sad tale. Especially now that I have returned to the area after my wanderings. (Adenvelt was hot, Northshield was cold. An Tir was... An Tir.)
              I suppose I shall have to seek them out and find what remains.
              Thank you for your tale, sad though it was. Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell



              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.comFrom: elizabeth.leonard@...: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:25:42 -0500Subject: [SCA-JML] Re:Sacramento group?




              Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in GoldenRivers you speak of...Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA personasgot bored with being European. The garb started to feel like a T-shirtand jeans. The cultural stuff seemed to be shared only by snooty folkswho liked to point out how little we knew. It wasn't fun. We decidedto become the first Japanese house we'd heard of: The Fishing Village.We felt a new freedom- freedom to be silly with our personas. Weinvented "Butt Sumo", the office of "Suishi" and "the Ninja Closet". Weaspired to have humble, practical garb that was easy to sew and Japanesegarb really fit the bill. Because we didn't feel like we were being"watched" by peers, we felt free to research new stuff and try thingsout. We grew in numbers. As our research base grew, we decided tobecome Clan Hosokawa. A division started to slowly grow- those whowanted to research for more cultural/period accuracy and recognition bythe mainstream SCA and those who clung to the specialness of our "insidejoke" and humble, silly village. The lord of the house and I were goingthrough our own divisions and in 2004 we broke up. I retired as lady ofthe clan, but the new lady of the clan didn't have the sameleadership-leanings. The lord became lost. I moved to Oertha. Theclan slowly crumbled and a new lord of the clan stepped up. Since Ihave moved back from Oertha, I have kept my Hosokawa name, but am muchmore involved with the fencing guild than the remaining Clan Hosokawa.We are still friends.You might see Takeshi or Sora at the heavy fighter practice at Gather onWednesday nights- they are the leaders of Clan Hosokawa.-Yukiko Hosokawa (Hosokawa Yukiko)Sacramento group?<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/24514;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM201MmkwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAzI0NTE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjM1NzQ0NTc-> Posted by: "Horatius at the Bridge" horatius314@...<mailto:horatius314@...?Subject= Re%3ASacramento%20group%3F>yamazakigoro <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yamazakigoro> Wed Oct 8, 2008 5:09 pm (PDT) Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area.I was wondering if they were still around.If someone from that group is still around, could they please contactme.Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules andabsolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              _________________________________________________________________
              Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live.
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Anthony Bryant
              ... It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt. Effingham
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jeanel Walker wrote:

                > so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                > because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                > Am I understanding this right?
                >
                >

                It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt.


                Effingham
              • Troxell, Mark A.
                The white ties do function as and are in effect a belt for the hakama. You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the SCA, you just need
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                  The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the hakama.




                  You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                  SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                  recognized as a peer by the chivalry.



                  Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one morning
                  an declare themselves samurai.



                  From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Anthony Bryant
                  Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:40 AM
                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question




                  On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jeanel Walker wrote:

                  > so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                  > because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                  > Am I understanding this right?
                  >
                  >

                  It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt.

                  Effingham





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • JL Badgley
                  On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A. ... So does a white cord for a monk s habit or white cords that hold up chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However,
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                    On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                    <troxelma@...> wrote:
                    > The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the hakama.

                    So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                    chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                    white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.

                    Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                    it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                    representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                    the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                    the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                    doublet).

                    The koshi-himo hold the hakama onto the person. The obi is what holds
                    up the sword, whether the sword is thrust through the obi or it is
                    hung from it.

                    Furthermore, a white belt is special because a leather belt is usually
                    *not* white. Whereas for fabric, white is the default (easier to
                    bleach things white than to try to get color to stay).

                    > You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                    > SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                    > recognized as a peer by the chivalry.

                    I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you are a knight but I find this to be
                    incorrect and demeaning to knighthood as it appears to imply that
                    being a knight is something 'anyone' can do. Can they? I believe
                    that the time and effort one has to devote is considerable, and that
                    it is not something that everyone can do, any more than everyone can
                    become a billionaire. It takes a certain amount of talent and
                    physical ability as well as hard work and training to become a knight.
                    That is why knighthood is valued and praised.

                    > Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one morning
                    > an declare themselves samurai.

                    Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                    could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                    become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                    that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.

                    I respect the chivalry, and not because I'm afraid someone would bash
                    my head in if I said otherwise but because they put a lot of work and
                    effort to achieve the level they do. There are some *knights* I don't
                    respect, but that is personal and has nothing to do with the Order
                    itself.

                    Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                    between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                    the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                    know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                    knight--unless we are going to say all people who claim to be bushi
                    are claiming to be knights, anyway, in which case most of us doing
                    Japanese should just stop playing altogether.

                    I do agree that people shouldn't wear white obi. In normal clothing
                    it wouldn't be apparent (but then, if you *must* wear a belt to show
                    people you are a knight, then what else is wrong?), but on the field,
                    in armour, you would know.

                    All that said, until a ruling comes down from Laurel (and I've yet to
                    see one, one way or the other), I will respect the prejudices of
                    others and purposefully make my garments inaccurately to suit their
                    needs.


                    -Ii
                  • Troxell, Mark A.
                    Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage.... From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                      Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to
                      your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage....



                      From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of JL Badgley
                      Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:47 AM
                      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question



                      On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                      <troxelma@... <mailto:troxelma%40westinghouse.com> > wrote:
                      > The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the
                      hakama.

                      So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                      chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                      white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.

                      Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                      it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                      representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                      the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                      the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                      doublet).

                      The koshi-himo hold the hakama onto the person. The obi is what holds
                      up the sword, whether the sword is thrust through the obi or it is
                      hung from it.

                      Furthermore, a white belt is special because a leather belt is usually
                      *not* white. Whereas for fabric, white is the default (easier to
                      bleach things white than to try to get color to stay).

                      > You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                      > SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                      > recognized as a peer by the chivalry.

                      I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you are a knight but I find this to be
                      incorrect and demeaning to knighthood as it appears to imply that
                      being a knight is something 'anyone' can do. Can they? I believe
                      that the time and effort one has to devote is considerable, and that
                      it is not something that everyone can do, any more than everyone can
                      become a billionaire. It takes a certain amount of talent and
                      physical ability as well as hard work and training to become a knight.
                      That is why knighthood is valued and praised.

                      > Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one
                      morning
                      > an declare themselves samurai.

                      Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                      could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                      become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                      that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.

                      I respect the chivalry, and not because I'm afraid someone would bash
                      my head in if I said otherwise but because they put a lot of work and
                      effort to achieve the level they do. There are some *knights* I don't
                      respect, but that is personal and has nothing to do with the Order
                      itself.

                      Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                      between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                      the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                      know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                      knight--unless we are going to say all people who claim to be bushi
                      are claiming to be knights, anyway, in which case most of us doing
                      Japanese should just stop playing altogether.

                      I do agree that people shouldn't wear white obi. In normal clothing
                      it wouldn't be apparent (but then, if you *must* wear a belt to show
                      people you are a knight, then what else is wrong?), but on the field,
                      in armour, you would know.

                      All that said, until a ruling comes down from Laurel (and I've yet to
                      see one, one way or the other), I will respect the prejudices of
                      others and purposefully make my garments inaccurately to suit their
                      needs.

                      -Ii





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • JL Badgley
                      On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Troxell, Mark A. ... I apologize if I have offended. I m afraid this is something I can be perhaps overly passionate about,
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                        On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                        <troxelma@...> wrote:
                        > Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to
                        > your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage....
                        >
                        I apologize if I have offended. I'm afraid this is something I can be
                        perhaps overly passionate about, and much of my argument was not meant
                        to be directed at you, specifically.

                        -Ii
                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Soleig! ... Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and their supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
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                          Noble Cousins!

                          Greetings from Soleig!
                          >
                          > <troxelma@...> wrote:
                          >> The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the
                          >> hakama.
                          >
                          > So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                          > chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                          > white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.
                          Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and their
                          supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those who find offense over
                          the white belt of a cisterian (sp) monk.
                          > Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                          > it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                          > representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                          > the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                          > the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                          > doublet).
                          That is correct. The problem is that various members of the chivalry
                          have
                          adopted a wide range of more or less white thingies that go around their
                          waist.
                          > Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                          > could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                          > become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                          > that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.
                          Historically, it all depended on when you are talking about. There was
                          a famous "sword hunt" during the late sixteenth century. Basically, it
                          really depended upon the economics of soldiers at the time.
                          > Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                          > between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                          > the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                          > know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                          > knight--
                          I wish that this were uniformly true. I do however know at least one
                          Japanese knight who is rather protective of the white belt. However,
                          his take on a white belt for his personal use, while made of cloth, is
                          a big mucking thing which does not at all look like a part of his
                          hakama.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • konradvonb
                          Greetings: This is just another way that the trappings of the SCA disrupt the way that things were actually done in period. Though technically not a belt it
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 13, 2008
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                            Greetings:

                            This is just another way that the trappings of the SCA disrupt
                            the way that things were actually done in period. Though technically
                            not a 'belt' it will look enough like a belt that you should probably
                            expect every other person to ask you what you were thinking. You
                            have history on your side, but I don't think that will convince
                            anyone :(

                            I guess you have a few options:

                            1. Make the historically correct hakama and be prepared to defend
                            yourself from anyone who thinks that you're actually trying to
                            portray yourself as a knight of the SCA without spurs and a chain.

                            2. Make the hakama with matching fabric or is of a color other than
                            those that are protected by sumptuary traditions.

                            3. Get knighted. The question is moot!


                            Konrad von Krixen
                            Artemisia


                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Noble Cousins!
                            >
                            > Greetings from Soleig!
                            > >
                            > > <troxelma@...> wrote:
                            > >> The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for
                            the
                            > >> hakama.
                            > >
                            > > So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold
                            up
                            > > chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look'
                            like a
                            > > white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not
                            function.
                            > Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and
                            their
                            > supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those who find offense over
                            > the white belt of a cisterian (sp) monk.
                            > > Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-
                            himo,
                            > > it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                            > > representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be
                            for
                            > > the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons
                            of
                            > > the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                            > > doublet).
                            > That is correct. The problem is that various members of the
                            chivalry
                            > have
                            > adopted a wide range of more or less white thingies that go around
                            their
                            > waist.
                            > > Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but
                            they
                            > > could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they
                            could go
                            > > become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was
                            later
                            > > that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.
                            > Historically, it all depended on when you are talking about. There
                            was
                            > a famous "sword hunt" during the late sixteenth century. Basically,
                            it
                            > really depended upon the economics of soldiers at the time.
                            > > Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the
                            difference
                            > > between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell
                            that
                            > > the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                            > > know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                            > > knight--
                            > I wish that this were uniformly true. I do however know at least one
                            > Japanese knight who is rather protective of the white belt. However,
                            > his take on a white belt for his personal use, while made of cloth,
                            is
                            > a big mucking thing which does not at all look like a part of his
                            > hakama.
                            >
                            > Your Humble Servant
                            > Solveig Throndardottir
                            > Amateur Scholar
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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