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Re: Question

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  • tatsumechan
    ... So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that s the correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about? Tatsume
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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      >
      > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
      > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
      > misinterpreting what they are seeing.
      >
      >
      > effingham
      >

      So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
      correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

      Tatsume
    • wodeford
      ... Yes. For example, here, with formal and semi-formal hitatare: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tatsumechan" <kanamori.tatsume@...>
        wrote:

        > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
        > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

        Yes.
        For example, here, with formal and semi-formal hitatare:
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/19.htm

        As opposed to these example, in which the hakama himo match the rest
        of the hakama:
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/27.htm

        One of the reasons you don't see much of this in the SCA is because of
        the whole white-belt-reserved-for-chivalry thing.

        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdom
      • Anthony Bryant
        ... Yup. It s the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white ties. But duplicating them looks like you re wearing a white belt. Effingham
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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          On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:42 PM, tatsumechan wrote:

          >
          > >
          > > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
          > > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
          > > misinterpreting what they are seeing.
          >
          > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
          > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?
          >
          Yup.

          It's the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white
          ties. But duplicating them looks like you're wearing a white belt.


          Effingham
        • Leonard, Elizabeth A. @ Sacramento
          Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in Golden Rivers you speak of... Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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            Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in Golden
            Rivers you speak of...


            Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA personas
            got bored with being European. The garb started to feel like a T-shirt
            and jeans. The cultural stuff seemed to be shared only by snooty folks
            who liked to point out how little we knew. It wasn't fun. We decided
            to become the first Japanese house we'd heard of: The Fishing Village.
            We felt a new freedom- freedom to be silly with our personas. We
            invented "Butt Sumo", the office of "Suishi" and "the Ninja Closet". We
            aspired to have humble, practical garb that was easy to sew and Japanese
            garb really fit the bill. Because we didn't feel like we were being
            "watched" by peers, we felt free to research new stuff and try things
            out. We grew in numbers. As our research base grew, we decided to
            become Clan Hosokawa. A division started to slowly grow- those who
            wanted to research for more cultural/period accuracy and recognition by
            the mainstream SCA and those who clung to the specialness of our "inside
            joke" and humble, silly village. The lord of the house and I were going
            through our own divisions and in 2004 we broke up. I retired as lady of
            the clan, but the new lady of the clan didn't have the same
            leadership-leanings. The lord became lost. I moved to Oertha. The
            clan slowly crumbled and a new lord of the clan stepped up. Since I
            have moved back from Oertha, I have kept my Hosokawa name, but am much
            more involved with the fencing guild than the remaining Clan Hosokawa.
            We are still friends.


            You might see Takeshi or Sora at the heavy fighter practice at Gather on
            Wednesday nights- they are the leaders of Clan Hosokawa.


            -Yukiko Hosokawa (Hosokawa Yukiko)


            Sacramento group?
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/24514;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM201Mm
            kwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAz
            I0NTE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjM1NzQ0NTc->


            Posted by: "Horatius at the Bridge" horatius314@...
            <mailto:horatius314@...?Subject= Re%3ASacramento%20group%3F>
            yamazakigoro <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yamazakigoro>


            Wed Oct 8, 2008 5:09 pm (PDT)


            Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area.
            I was wondering if they were still around.

            If someone from that group is still around, could they please contact
            me.
            Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and
            absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeanel Walker
            so you cant be formal is what your saying? because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie Am I understanding this right? Change is in the heart... age
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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              so you cant be formal is what your saying?
              because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
              Am I understanding this right?

              Change is in the heart... age is in the mind... Beauty and or truth is in the eye of the beholder....But Kindness is Eternal.
              Jeanel Walker


              --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
              From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
              Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question
              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 12:11 PM













              On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:42 PM, tatsumechan wrote:



              >

              > >

              > > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the

              > > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is

              > > misinterpreting what they are seeing.

              >

              > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the

              > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

              >

              Yup.



              It's the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white

              ties. But duplicating them looks like you're wearing a white belt.



              Effingham



























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Horatius at the Bridge
              This is truly a sad tale. Especially now that I have returned to the area after my wanderings. (Adenvelt was hot, Northshield was cold. An Tir was... An Tir.)
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                This is truly a sad tale. Especially now that I have returned to the area after my wanderings. (Adenvelt was hot, Northshield was cold. An Tir was... An Tir.)
                I suppose I shall have to seek them out and find what remains.
                Thank you for your tale, sad though it was. Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell



                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.comFrom: elizabeth.leonard@...: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:25:42 -0500Subject: [SCA-JML] Re:Sacramento group?




                Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in GoldenRivers you speak of...Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA personasgot bored with being European. The garb started to feel like a T-shirtand jeans. The cultural stuff seemed to be shared only by snooty folkswho liked to point out how little we knew. It wasn't fun. We decidedto become the first Japanese house we'd heard of: The Fishing Village.We felt a new freedom- freedom to be silly with our personas. Weinvented "Butt Sumo", the office of "Suishi" and "the Ninja Closet". Weaspired to have humble, practical garb that was easy to sew and Japanesegarb really fit the bill. Because we didn't feel like we were being"watched" by peers, we felt free to research new stuff and try thingsout. We grew in numbers. As our research base grew, we decided tobecome Clan Hosokawa. A division started to slowly grow- those whowanted to research for more cultural/period accuracy and recognition bythe mainstream SCA and those who clung to the specialness of our "insidejoke" and humble, silly village. The lord of the house and I were goingthrough our own divisions and in 2004 we broke up. I retired as lady ofthe clan, but the new lady of the clan didn't have the sameleadership-leanings. The lord became lost. I moved to Oertha. Theclan slowly crumbled and a new lord of the clan stepped up. Since Ihave moved back from Oertha, I have kept my Hosokawa name, but am muchmore involved with the fencing guild than the remaining Clan Hosokawa.We are still friends.You might see Takeshi or Sora at the heavy fighter practice at Gather onWednesday nights- they are the leaders of Clan Hosokawa.-Yukiko Hosokawa (Hosokawa Yukiko)Sacramento group?<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/24514;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM201MmkwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAzI0NTE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjM1NzQ0NTc-> Posted by: "Horatius at the Bridge" horatius314@...<mailto:horatius314@...?Subject= Re%3ASacramento%20group%3F>yamazakigoro <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yamazakigoro> Wed Oct 8, 2008 5:09 pm (PDT) Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area.I was wondering if they were still around.If someone from that group is still around, could they please contactme.Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules andabsolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live.
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Anthony Bryant
                ... It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt. Effingham
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                  On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jeanel Walker wrote:

                  > so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                  > because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                  > Am I understanding this right?
                  >
                  >

                  It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt.


                  Effingham
                • Troxell, Mark A.
                  The white ties do function as and are in effect a belt for the hakama. You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the SCA, you just need
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                    The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the hakama.




                    You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                    SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                    recognized as a peer by the chivalry.



                    Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one morning
                    an declare themselves samurai.



                    From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of Anthony Bryant
                    Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:40 AM
                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question




                    On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jeanel Walker wrote:

                    > so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                    > because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                    > Am I understanding this right?
                    >
                    >

                    It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt.

                    Effingham





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • JL Badgley
                    On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A. ... So does a white cord for a monk s habit or white cords that hold up chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However,
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                      On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                      <troxelma@...> wrote:
                      > The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the hakama.

                      So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                      chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                      white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.

                      Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                      it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                      representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                      the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                      the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                      doublet).

                      The koshi-himo hold the hakama onto the person. The obi is what holds
                      up the sword, whether the sword is thrust through the obi or it is
                      hung from it.

                      Furthermore, a white belt is special because a leather belt is usually
                      *not* white. Whereas for fabric, white is the default (easier to
                      bleach things white than to try to get color to stay).

                      > You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                      > SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                      > recognized as a peer by the chivalry.

                      I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you are a knight but I find this to be
                      incorrect and demeaning to knighthood as it appears to imply that
                      being a knight is something 'anyone' can do. Can they? I believe
                      that the time and effort one has to devote is considerable, and that
                      it is not something that everyone can do, any more than everyone can
                      become a billionaire. It takes a certain amount of talent and
                      physical ability as well as hard work and training to become a knight.
                      That is why knighthood is valued and praised.

                      > Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one morning
                      > an declare themselves samurai.

                      Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                      could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                      become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                      that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.

                      I respect the chivalry, and not because I'm afraid someone would bash
                      my head in if I said otherwise but because they put a lot of work and
                      effort to achieve the level they do. There are some *knights* I don't
                      respect, but that is personal and has nothing to do with the Order
                      itself.

                      Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                      between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                      the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                      know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                      knight--unless we are going to say all people who claim to be bushi
                      are claiming to be knights, anyway, in which case most of us doing
                      Japanese should just stop playing altogether.

                      I do agree that people shouldn't wear white obi. In normal clothing
                      it wouldn't be apparent (but then, if you *must* wear a belt to show
                      people you are a knight, then what else is wrong?), but on the field,
                      in armour, you would know.

                      All that said, until a ruling comes down from Laurel (and I've yet to
                      see one, one way or the other), I will respect the prejudices of
                      others and purposefully make my garments inaccurately to suit their
                      needs.


                      -Ii
                    • Troxell, Mark A.
                      Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage.... From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                        Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to
                        your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage....



                        From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of JL Badgley
                        Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:47 AM
                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question



                        On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                        <troxelma@... <mailto:troxelma%40westinghouse.com> > wrote:
                        > The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the
                        hakama.

                        So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                        chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                        white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.

                        Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                        it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                        representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                        the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                        the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                        doublet).

                        The koshi-himo hold the hakama onto the person. The obi is what holds
                        up the sword, whether the sword is thrust through the obi or it is
                        hung from it.

                        Furthermore, a white belt is special because a leather belt is usually
                        *not* white. Whereas for fabric, white is the default (easier to
                        bleach things white than to try to get color to stay).

                        > You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                        > SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                        > recognized as a peer by the chivalry.

                        I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you are a knight but I find this to be
                        incorrect and demeaning to knighthood as it appears to imply that
                        being a knight is something 'anyone' can do. Can they? I believe
                        that the time and effort one has to devote is considerable, and that
                        it is not something that everyone can do, any more than everyone can
                        become a billionaire. It takes a certain amount of talent and
                        physical ability as well as hard work and training to become a knight.
                        That is why knighthood is valued and praised.

                        > Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one
                        morning
                        > an declare themselves samurai.

                        Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                        could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                        become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                        that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.

                        I respect the chivalry, and not because I'm afraid someone would bash
                        my head in if I said otherwise but because they put a lot of work and
                        effort to achieve the level they do. There are some *knights* I don't
                        respect, but that is personal and has nothing to do with the Order
                        itself.

                        Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                        between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                        the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                        know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                        knight--unless we are going to say all people who claim to be bushi
                        are claiming to be knights, anyway, in which case most of us doing
                        Japanese should just stop playing altogether.

                        I do agree that people shouldn't wear white obi. In normal clothing
                        it wouldn't be apparent (but then, if you *must* wear a belt to show
                        people you are a knight, then what else is wrong?), but on the field,
                        in armour, you would know.

                        All that said, until a ruling comes down from Laurel (and I've yet to
                        see one, one way or the other), I will respect the prejudices of
                        others and purposefully make my garments inaccurately to suit their
                        needs.

                        -Ii





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • JL Badgley
                        On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Troxell, Mark A. ... I apologize if I have offended. I m afraid this is something I can be perhaps overly passionate about,
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                          On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                          <troxelma@...> wrote:
                          > Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to
                          > your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage....
                          >
                          I apologize if I have offended. I'm afraid this is something I can be
                          perhaps overly passionate about, and much of my argument was not meant
                          to be directed at you, specifically.

                          -Ii
                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Soleig! ... Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and their supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
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                            Noble Cousins!

                            Greetings from Soleig!
                            >
                            > <troxelma@...> wrote:
                            >> The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the
                            >> hakama.
                            >
                            > So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                            > chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                            > white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.
                            Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and their
                            supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those who find offense over
                            the white belt of a cisterian (sp) monk.
                            > Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                            > it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                            > representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                            > the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                            > the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                            > doublet).
                            That is correct. The problem is that various members of the chivalry
                            have
                            adopted a wide range of more or less white thingies that go around their
                            waist.
                            > Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                            > could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                            > become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                            > that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.
                            Historically, it all depended on when you are talking about. There was
                            a famous "sword hunt" during the late sixteenth century. Basically, it
                            really depended upon the economics of soldiers at the time.
                            > Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                            > between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                            > the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                            > know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                            > knight--
                            I wish that this were uniformly true. I do however know at least one
                            Japanese knight who is rather protective of the white belt. However,
                            his take on a white belt for his personal use, while made of cloth, is
                            a big mucking thing which does not at all look like a part of his
                            hakama.

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • konradvonb
                            Greetings: This is just another way that the trappings of the SCA disrupt the way that things were actually done in period. Though technically not a belt it
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 13, 2008
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                              Greetings:

                              This is just another way that the trappings of the SCA disrupt
                              the way that things were actually done in period. Though technically
                              not a 'belt' it will look enough like a belt that you should probably
                              expect every other person to ask you what you were thinking. You
                              have history on your side, but I don't think that will convince
                              anyone :(

                              I guess you have a few options:

                              1. Make the historically correct hakama and be prepared to defend
                              yourself from anyone who thinks that you're actually trying to
                              portray yourself as a knight of the SCA without spurs and a chain.

                              2. Make the hakama with matching fabric or is of a color other than
                              those that are protected by sumptuary traditions.

                              3. Get knighted. The question is moot!


                              Konrad von Krixen
                              Artemisia


                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Noble Cousins!
                              >
                              > Greetings from Soleig!
                              > >
                              > > <troxelma@...> wrote:
                              > >> The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for
                              the
                              > >> hakama.
                              > >
                              > > So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold
                              up
                              > > chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look'
                              like a
                              > > white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not
                              function.
                              > Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and
                              their
                              > supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those who find offense over
                              > the white belt of a cisterian (sp) monk.
                              > > Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-
                              himo,
                              > > it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                              > > representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be
                              for
                              > > the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons
                              of
                              > > the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                              > > doublet).
                              > That is correct. The problem is that various members of the
                              chivalry
                              > have
                              > adopted a wide range of more or less white thingies that go around
                              their
                              > waist.
                              > > Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but
                              they
                              > > could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they
                              could go
                              > > become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was
                              later
                              > > that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.
                              > Historically, it all depended on when you are talking about. There
                              was
                              > a famous "sword hunt" during the late sixteenth century. Basically,
                              it
                              > really depended upon the economics of soldiers at the time.
                              > > Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the
                              difference
                              > > between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell
                              that
                              > > the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                              > > know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                              > > knight--
                              > I wish that this were uniformly true. I do however know at least one
                              > Japanese knight who is rather protective of the white belt. However,
                              > his take on a white belt for his personal use, while made of cloth,
                              is
                              > a big mucking thing which does not at all look like a part of his
                              > hakama.
                              >
                              > Your Humble Servant
                              > Solveig Throndardottir
                              > Amateur Scholar
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