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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question

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  • Eliza Hulce
    Thank you very much for all the help.  We were successful and he looks pretty snazzy  =) Mari   ... From: JL Badgley To:
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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      Thank you very much for all the help.  We were successful and he looks pretty snazzy  =)

      Mari

       


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 7:38:14 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question


      On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:14 AM, Marten <kenshifencer@ hotmail.com> wrote:
      >
      > http://kendo- blog.typepad. com/my_weblog/ 2008/10/how- to-tie-an- o.html
      >
      > An obi is nice if you are going to be carrying a katana, wakizashi or
      > tanto. It is not necessary to hold up the hakama. Do NOT tie it
      > outside the hakama.
      >
      > Good luck.
      >
      > Marten

      One more note: If you throw on a kataginu or hitatare, the obi should
      go over them (i.e. kosode->kataginu/ hitatare- >obi->hakama)

      -Ii





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Horatius at the Bridge
      Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area. I was wondering if they were still around. If someone from that group is still around,
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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        Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area. I was wondering if they were still around.

        If someone from that group is still around, could they please contact me.
        Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell
        _________________________________________________________________
        See how Windows Mobile brings your life together�at home, work, or on the go.
        http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/

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      • tatsumechan
        ... So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that s the correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about? Tatsume
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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          >
          > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
          > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
          > misinterpreting what they are seeing.
          >
          >
          > effingham
          >

          So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
          correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

          Tatsume
        • wodeford
          ... Yes. For example, here, with formal and semi-formal hitatare: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tatsumechan" <kanamori.tatsume@...>
            wrote:

            > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
            > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

            Yes.
            For example, here, with formal and semi-formal hitatare:
            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/19.htm

            As opposed to these example, in which the hakama himo match the rest
            of the hakama:
            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm
            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/27.htm

            One of the reasons you don't see much of this in the SCA is because of
            the whole white-belt-reserved-for-chivalry thing.

            Saionji no Hanae
            West Kingdom
          • Anthony Bryant
            ... Yup. It s the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white ties. But duplicating them looks like you re wearing a white belt. Effingham
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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              On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:42 PM, tatsumechan wrote:

              >
              > >
              > > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
              > > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
              > > misinterpreting what they are seeing.
              >
              > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
              > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?
              >
              Yup.

              It's the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white
              ties. But duplicating them looks like you're wearing a white belt.


              Effingham
            • Leonard, Elizabeth A. @ Sacramento
              Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in Golden Rivers you speak of... Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in Golden
                Rivers you speak of...


                Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA personas
                got bored with being European. The garb started to feel like a T-shirt
                and jeans. The cultural stuff seemed to be shared only by snooty folks
                who liked to point out how little we knew. It wasn't fun. We decided
                to become the first Japanese house we'd heard of: The Fishing Village.
                We felt a new freedom- freedom to be silly with our personas. We
                invented "Butt Sumo", the office of "Suishi" and "the Ninja Closet". We
                aspired to have humble, practical garb that was easy to sew and Japanese
                garb really fit the bill. Because we didn't feel like we were being
                "watched" by peers, we felt free to research new stuff and try things
                out. We grew in numbers. As our research base grew, we decided to
                become Clan Hosokawa. A division started to slowly grow- those who
                wanted to research for more cultural/period accuracy and recognition by
                the mainstream SCA and those who clung to the specialness of our "inside
                joke" and humble, silly village. The lord of the house and I were going
                through our own divisions and in 2004 we broke up. I retired as lady of
                the clan, but the new lady of the clan didn't have the same
                leadership-leanings. The lord became lost. I moved to Oertha. The
                clan slowly crumbled and a new lord of the clan stepped up. Since I
                have moved back from Oertha, I have kept my Hosokawa name, but am much
                more involved with the fencing guild than the remaining Clan Hosokawa.
                We are still friends.


                You might see Takeshi or Sora at the heavy fighter practice at Gather on
                Wednesday nights- they are the leaders of Clan Hosokawa.


                -Yukiko Hosokawa (Hosokawa Yukiko)


                Sacramento group?
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/24514;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM201Mm
                kwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAz
                I0NTE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjM1NzQ0NTc->


                Posted by: "Horatius at the Bridge" horatius314@...
                <mailto:horatius314@...?Subject= Re%3ASacramento%20group%3F>
                yamazakigoro <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yamazakigoro>


                Wed Oct 8, 2008 5:09 pm (PDT)


                Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area.
                I was wondering if they were still around.

                If someone from that group is still around, could they please contact
                me.
                Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and
                absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jeanel Walker
                so you cant be formal is what your saying? because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie Am I understanding this right? Change is in the heart... age
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                  so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                  because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                  Am I understanding this right?

                  Change is in the heart... age is in the mind... Beauty and or truth is in the eye of the beholder....But Kindness is Eternal.
                  Jeanel Walker


                  --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
                  From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question
                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 12:11 PM













                  On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:42 PM, tatsumechan wrote:



                  >

                  > >

                  > > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the

                  > > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is

                  > > misinterpreting what they are seeing.

                  >

                  > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the

                  > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

                  >

                  Yup.



                  It's the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white

                  ties. But duplicating them looks like you're wearing a white belt.



                  Effingham



























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Horatius at the Bridge
                  This is truly a sad tale. Especially now that I have returned to the area after my wanderings. (Adenvelt was hot, Northshield was cold. An Tir was... An Tir.)
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                    This is truly a sad tale. Especially now that I have returned to the area after my wanderings. (Adenvelt was hot, Northshield was cold. An Tir was... An Tir.)
                    I suppose I shall have to seek them out and find what remains.
                    Thank you for your tale, sad though it was. Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell



                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.comFrom: elizabeth.leonard@...: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:25:42 -0500Subject: [SCA-JML] Re:Sacramento group?




                    Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in GoldenRivers you speak of...Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA personasgot bored with being European. The garb started to feel like a T-shirtand jeans. The cultural stuff seemed to be shared only by snooty folkswho liked to point out how little we knew. It wasn't fun. We decidedto become the first Japanese house we'd heard of: The Fishing Village.We felt a new freedom- freedom to be silly with our personas. Weinvented "Butt Sumo", the office of "Suishi" and "the Ninja Closet". Weaspired to have humble, practical garb that was easy to sew and Japanesegarb really fit the bill. Because we didn't feel like we were being"watched" by peers, we felt free to research new stuff and try thingsout. We grew in numbers. As our research base grew, we decided tobecome Clan Hosokawa. A division started to slowly grow- those whowanted to research for more cultural/period accuracy and recognition bythe mainstream SCA and those who clung to the specialness of our "insidejoke" and humble, silly village. The lord of the house and I were goingthrough our own divisions and in 2004 we broke up. I retired as lady ofthe clan, but the new lady of the clan didn't have the sameleadership-leanings. The lord became lost. I moved to Oertha. Theclan slowly crumbled and a new lord of the clan stepped up. Since Ihave moved back from Oertha, I have kept my Hosokawa name, but am muchmore involved with the fencing guild than the remaining Clan Hosokawa.We are still friends.You might see Takeshi or Sora at the heavy fighter practice at Gather onWednesday nights- they are the leaders of Clan Hosokawa.-Yukiko Hosokawa (Hosokawa Yukiko)Sacramento group?<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/24514;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM201MmkwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAzI0NTE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjM1NzQ0NTc-> Posted by: "Horatius at the Bridge" horatius314@...<mailto:horatius314@...?Subject= Re%3ASacramento%20group%3F>yamazakigoro <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yamazakigoro> Wed Oct 8, 2008 5:09 pm (PDT) Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area.I was wondering if they were still around.If someone from that group is still around, could they please contactme.Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules andabsolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live.
                    http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Anthony Bryant
                    ... It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt. Effingham
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                      On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jeanel Walker wrote:

                      > so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                      > because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                      > Am I understanding this right?
                      >
                      >

                      It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt.


                      Effingham
                    • Troxell, Mark A.
                      The white ties do function as and are in effect a belt for the hakama. You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the SCA, you just need
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                        The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the hakama.




                        You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                        SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                        recognized as a peer by the chivalry.



                        Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one morning
                        an declare themselves samurai.



                        From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Anthony Bryant
                        Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:40 AM
                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question




                        On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jeanel Walker wrote:

                        > so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                        > because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                        > Am I understanding this right?
                        >
                        >

                        It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt.

                        Effingham





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • JL Badgley
                        On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A. ... So does a white cord for a monk s habit or white cords that hold up chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However,
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                          On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                          <troxelma@...> wrote:
                          > The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the hakama.

                          So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                          chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                          white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.

                          Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                          it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                          representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                          the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                          the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                          doublet).

                          The koshi-himo hold the hakama onto the person. The obi is what holds
                          up the sword, whether the sword is thrust through the obi or it is
                          hung from it.

                          Furthermore, a white belt is special because a leather belt is usually
                          *not* white. Whereas for fabric, white is the default (easier to
                          bleach things white than to try to get color to stay).

                          > You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                          > SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                          > recognized as a peer by the chivalry.

                          I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you are a knight but I find this to be
                          incorrect and demeaning to knighthood as it appears to imply that
                          being a knight is something 'anyone' can do. Can they? I believe
                          that the time and effort one has to devote is considerable, and that
                          it is not something that everyone can do, any more than everyone can
                          become a billionaire. It takes a certain amount of talent and
                          physical ability as well as hard work and training to become a knight.
                          That is why knighthood is valued and praised.

                          > Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one morning
                          > an declare themselves samurai.

                          Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                          could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                          become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                          that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.

                          I respect the chivalry, and not because I'm afraid someone would bash
                          my head in if I said otherwise but because they put a lot of work and
                          effort to achieve the level they do. There are some *knights* I don't
                          respect, but that is personal and has nothing to do with the Order
                          itself.

                          Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                          between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                          the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                          know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                          knight--unless we are going to say all people who claim to be bushi
                          are claiming to be knights, anyway, in which case most of us doing
                          Japanese should just stop playing altogether.

                          I do agree that people shouldn't wear white obi. In normal clothing
                          it wouldn't be apparent (but then, if you *must* wear a belt to show
                          people you are a knight, then what else is wrong?), but on the field,
                          in armour, you would know.

                          All that said, until a ruling comes down from Laurel (and I've yet to
                          see one, one way or the other), I will respect the prejudices of
                          others and purposefully make my garments inaccurately to suit their
                          needs.


                          -Ii
                        • Troxell, Mark A.
                          Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage.... From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                            Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to
                            your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage....



                            From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of JL Badgley
                            Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:47 AM
                            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question



                            On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                            <troxelma@... <mailto:troxelma%40westinghouse.com> > wrote:
                            > The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the
                            hakama.

                            So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                            chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                            white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.

                            Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                            it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                            representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                            the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                            the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                            doublet).

                            The koshi-himo hold the hakama onto the person. The obi is what holds
                            up the sword, whether the sword is thrust through the obi or it is
                            hung from it.

                            Furthermore, a white belt is special because a leather belt is usually
                            *not* white. Whereas for fabric, white is the default (easier to
                            bleach things white than to try to get color to stay).

                            > You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                            > SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                            > recognized as a peer by the chivalry.

                            I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you are a knight but I find this to be
                            incorrect and demeaning to knighthood as it appears to imply that
                            being a knight is something 'anyone' can do. Can they? I believe
                            that the time and effort one has to devote is considerable, and that
                            it is not something that everyone can do, any more than everyone can
                            become a billionaire. It takes a certain amount of talent and
                            physical ability as well as hard work and training to become a knight.
                            That is why knighthood is valued and praised.

                            > Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one
                            morning
                            > an declare themselves samurai.

                            Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                            could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                            become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                            that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.

                            I respect the chivalry, and not because I'm afraid someone would bash
                            my head in if I said otherwise but because they put a lot of work and
                            effort to achieve the level they do. There are some *knights* I don't
                            respect, but that is personal and has nothing to do with the Order
                            itself.

                            Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                            between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                            the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                            know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                            knight--unless we are going to say all people who claim to be bushi
                            are claiming to be knights, anyway, in which case most of us doing
                            Japanese should just stop playing altogether.

                            I do agree that people shouldn't wear white obi. In normal clothing
                            it wouldn't be apparent (but then, if you *must* wear a belt to show
                            people you are a knight, then what else is wrong?), but on the field,
                            in armour, you would know.

                            All that said, until a ruling comes down from Laurel (and I've yet to
                            see one, one way or the other), I will respect the prejudices of
                            others and purposefully make my garments inaccurately to suit their
                            needs.

                            -Ii





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • JL Badgley
                            On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Troxell, Mark A. ... I apologize if I have offended. I m afraid this is something I can be perhaps overly passionate about,
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                              On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                              <troxelma@...> wrote:
                              > Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to
                              > your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage....
                              >
                              I apologize if I have offended. I'm afraid this is something I can be
                              perhaps overly passionate about, and much of my argument was not meant
                              to be directed at you, specifically.

                              -Ii
                            • Solveig Throndardottir
                              Noble Cousins! Greetings from Soleig! ... Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and their supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
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                                Noble Cousins!

                                Greetings from Soleig!
                                >
                                > <troxelma@...> wrote:
                                >> The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the
                                >> hakama.
                                >
                                > So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                                > chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                                > white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.
                                Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and their
                                supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those who find offense over
                                the white belt of a cisterian (sp) monk.
                                > Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                                > it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                                > representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                                > the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                                > the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                                > doublet).
                                That is correct. The problem is that various members of the chivalry
                                have
                                adopted a wide range of more or less white thingies that go around their
                                waist.
                                > Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                                > could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                                > become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                                > that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.
                                Historically, it all depended on when you are talking about. There was
                                a famous "sword hunt" during the late sixteenth century. Basically, it
                                really depended upon the economics of soldiers at the time.
                                > Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                                > between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                                > the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                                > know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                                > knight--
                                I wish that this were uniformly true. I do however know at least one
                                Japanese knight who is rather protective of the white belt. However,
                                his take on a white belt for his personal use, while made of cloth, is
                                a big mucking thing which does not at all look like a part of his
                                hakama.

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • konradvonb
                                Greetings: This is just another way that the trappings of the SCA disrupt the way that things were actually done in period. Though technically not a belt it
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 13, 2008
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                                  Greetings:

                                  This is just another way that the trappings of the SCA disrupt
                                  the way that things were actually done in period. Though technically
                                  not a 'belt' it will look enough like a belt that you should probably
                                  expect every other person to ask you what you were thinking. You
                                  have history on your side, but I don't think that will convince
                                  anyone :(

                                  I guess you have a few options:

                                  1. Make the historically correct hakama and be prepared to defend
                                  yourself from anyone who thinks that you're actually trying to
                                  portray yourself as a knight of the SCA without spurs and a chain.

                                  2. Make the hakama with matching fabric or is of a color other than
                                  those that are protected by sumptuary traditions.

                                  3. Get knighted. The question is moot!


                                  Konrad von Krixen
                                  Artemisia


                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Noble Cousins!
                                  >
                                  > Greetings from Soleig!
                                  > >
                                  > > <troxelma@...> wrote:
                                  > >> The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for
                                  the
                                  > >> hakama.
                                  > >
                                  > > So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold
                                  up
                                  > > chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look'
                                  like a
                                  > > white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not
                                  function.
                                  > Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and
                                  their
                                  > supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those who find offense over
                                  > the white belt of a cisterian (sp) monk.
                                  > > Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-
                                  himo,
                                  > > it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                                  > > representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be
                                  for
                                  > > the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons
                                  of
                                  > > the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                                  > > doublet).
                                  > That is correct. The problem is that various members of the
                                  chivalry
                                  > have
                                  > adopted a wide range of more or less white thingies that go around
                                  their
                                  > waist.
                                  > > Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but
                                  they
                                  > > could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they
                                  could go
                                  > > become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was
                                  later
                                  > > that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.
                                  > Historically, it all depended on when you are talking about. There
                                  was
                                  > a famous "sword hunt" during the late sixteenth century. Basically,
                                  it
                                  > really depended upon the economics of soldiers at the time.
                                  > > Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the
                                  difference
                                  > > between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell
                                  that
                                  > > the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                                  > > know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                                  > > knight--
                                  > I wish that this were uniformly true. I do however know at least one
                                  > Japanese knight who is rather protective of the white belt. However,
                                  > his take on a white belt for his personal use, while made of cloth,
                                  is
                                  > a big mucking thing which does not at all look like a part of his
                                  > hakama.
                                  >
                                  > Your Humble Servant
                                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                                  > Amateur Scholar
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
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