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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question

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  • Rick Johnson
    ... merchant at Pennsic who was selling Japanese clothes and wearing his obi on top of his hakama? (and then all his customers following suit?) I don t suppose
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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      >> Speaking about the proper way to wear hakama. Did anyone see that
      merchant at Pennsic who was selling Japanese clothes and wearing his
      obi on top of his hakama? (and then all his customers following suit?)

      I don't suppose you have a pic?
      Sometimes a bad example helps more than a good.
      A bad next to a good is even better.




      Rick Johnson,
      PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
      geocities.com/RikJohnson39
      "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

      Please note: message attached


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    • Takeda Yoshi
      Konnichiwa I am new to posting on this group and this question interests me. I did not make Pennsic so I did not see this merchant in question. However, in
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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        Konnichiwa

        I am new to posting on this group and this question interests me. I did not make Pennsic so I did not see this merchant in question. However, in many source books it is not uncommon to see an obi tied over the top of the hakama. Additionally, in some of the books I have looked in, there is representation of obi's inside the hakama as well as outside.

        Takeda Yoshimoto


        ---- tatsumechan <kanamori.tatsume@...> wrote:
        > Speaking about the proper way to wear hakama. Did anyone see that
        > merchant at Pennsic who was selling Japanese clothes and wearing his
        > obi on top of his hakama? (and then all his customers following suit?)
        >
        > Tatsume
        >
      • Anthony Bryant
        ... I don t know what sourcebooks these are, but something is wrong. As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the fabric of the hakama
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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          On Oct 8, 2008, at 12:48 PM, Takeda Yoshi wrote:

          > Konnichiwa
          >
          > I am new to posting on this group and this question interests me. I
          > did not make Pennsic so I did not see this merchant in question.
          > However, in many source books it is not uncommon to see an obi tied
          > over the top of the hakama. Additionally, in some of the books I
          > have looked in, there is representation of obi's inside the hakama
          > as well as outside.
          >
          I don't know what "sourcebooks" these are, but something is wrong.

          As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
          fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
          misinterpreting what they are seeing.


          effingham
        • Eliza Hulce
          Thank you very much for all the help.  We were successful and he looks pretty snazzy  =) Mari   ... From: JL Badgley To:
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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            Thank you very much for all the help.  We were successful and he looks pretty snazzy  =)

            Mari

             


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 7:38:14 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question


            On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:14 AM, Marten <kenshifencer@ hotmail.com> wrote:
            >
            > http://kendo- blog.typepad. com/my_weblog/ 2008/10/how- to-tie-an- o.html
            >
            > An obi is nice if you are going to be carrying a katana, wakizashi or
            > tanto. It is not necessary to hold up the hakama. Do NOT tie it
            > outside the hakama.
            >
            > Good luck.
            >
            > Marten

            One more note: If you throw on a kataginu or hitatare, the obi should
            go over them (i.e. kosode->kataginu/ hitatare- >obi->hakama)

            -Ii





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Horatius at the Bridge
            Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area. I was wondering if they were still around. If someone from that group is still around,
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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              Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area. I was wondering if they were still around.

              If someone from that group is still around, could they please contact me.
              Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell
              _________________________________________________________________
              See how Windows Mobile brings your life together�at home, work, or on the go.
              http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/

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            • tatsumechan
              ... So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that s the correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about? Tatsume
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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                >
                > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
                > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
                > misinterpreting what they are seeing.
                >
                >
                > effingham
                >

                So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
                correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

                Tatsume
              • wodeford
                ... Yes. For example, here, with formal and semi-formal hitatare: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tatsumechan" <kanamori.tatsume@...>
                  wrote:

                  > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
                  > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

                  Yes.
                  For example, here, with formal and semi-formal hitatare:
                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/19.htm

                  As opposed to these example, in which the hakama himo match the rest
                  of the hakama:
                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm
                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/27.htm

                  One of the reasons you don't see much of this in the SCA is because of
                  the whole white-belt-reserved-for-chivalry thing.

                  Saionji no Hanae
                  West Kingdom
                • Anthony Bryant
                  ... Yup. It s the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white ties. But duplicating them looks like you re wearing a white belt. Effingham
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                    On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:42 PM, tatsumechan wrote:

                    >
                    > >
                    > > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
                    > > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
                    > > misinterpreting what they are seeing.
                    >
                    > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
                    > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?
                    >
                    Yup.

                    It's the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white
                    ties. But duplicating them looks like you're wearing a white belt.


                    Effingham
                  • Leonard, Elizabeth A. @ Sacramento
                    Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in Golden Rivers you speak of... Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                      Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in Golden
                      Rivers you speak of...


                      Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA personas
                      got bored with being European. The garb started to feel like a T-shirt
                      and jeans. The cultural stuff seemed to be shared only by snooty folks
                      who liked to point out how little we knew. It wasn't fun. We decided
                      to become the first Japanese house we'd heard of: The Fishing Village.
                      We felt a new freedom- freedom to be silly with our personas. We
                      invented "Butt Sumo", the office of "Suishi" and "the Ninja Closet". We
                      aspired to have humble, practical garb that was easy to sew and Japanese
                      garb really fit the bill. Because we didn't feel like we were being
                      "watched" by peers, we felt free to research new stuff and try things
                      out. We grew in numbers. As our research base grew, we decided to
                      become Clan Hosokawa. A division started to slowly grow- those who
                      wanted to research for more cultural/period accuracy and recognition by
                      the mainstream SCA and those who clung to the specialness of our "inside
                      joke" and humble, silly village. The lord of the house and I were going
                      through our own divisions and in 2004 we broke up. I retired as lady of
                      the clan, but the new lady of the clan didn't have the same
                      leadership-leanings. The lord became lost. I moved to Oertha. The
                      clan slowly crumbled and a new lord of the clan stepped up. Since I
                      have moved back from Oertha, I have kept my Hosokawa name, but am much
                      more involved with the fencing guild than the remaining Clan Hosokawa.
                      We are still friends.


                      You might see Takeshi or Sora at the heavy fighter practice at Gather on
                      Wednesday nights- they are the leaders of Clan Hosokawa.


                      -Yukiko Hosokawa (Hosokawa Yukiko)


                      Sacramento group?
                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/24514;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM201Mm
                      kwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAz
                      I0NTE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjM1NzQ0NTc->


                      Posted by: "Horatius at the Bridge" horatius314@...
                      <mailto:horatius314@...?Subject= Re%3ASacramento%20group%3F>
                      yamazakigoro <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yamazakigoro>


                      Wed Oct 8, 2008 5:09 pm (PDT)


                      Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area.
                      I was wondering if they were still around.

                      If someone from that group is still around, could they please contact
                      me.
                      Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and
                      absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jeanel Walker
                      so you cant be formal is what your saying? because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie Am I understanding this right? Change is in the heart... age
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                        so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                        because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                        Am I understanding this right?

                        Change is in the heart... age is in the mind... Beauty and or truth is in the eye of the beholder....But Kindness is Eternal.
                        Jeanel Walker


                        --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
                        From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question
                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 12:11 PM













                        On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:42 PM, tatsumechan wrote:



                        >

                        > >

                        > > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the

                        > > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is

                        > > misinterpreting what they are seeing.

                        >

                        > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the

                        > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

                        >

                        Yup.



                        It's the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white

                        ties. But duplicating them looks like you're wearing a white belt.



                        Effingham



























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Horatius at the Bridge
                        This is truly a sad tale. Especially now that I have returned to the area after my wanderings. (Adenvelt was hot, Northshield was cold. An Tir was... An Tir.)
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                          This is truly a sad tale. Especially now that I have returned to the area after my wanderings. (Adenvelt was hot, Northshield was cold. An Tir was... An Tir.)
                          I suppose I shall have to seek them out and find what remains.
                          Thank you for your tale, sad though it was. Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell



                          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.comFrom: elizabeth.leonard@...: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:25:42 -0500Subject: [SCA-JML] Re:Sacramento group?




                          Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in GoldenRivers you speak of...Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA personasgot bored with being European. The garb started to feel like a T-shirtand jeans. The cultural stuff seemed to be shared only by snooty folkswho liked to point out how little we knew. It wasn't fun. We decidedto become the first Japanese house we'd heard of: The Fishing Village.We felt a new freedom- freedom to be silly with our personas. Weinvented "Butt Sumo", the office of "Suishi" and "the Ninja Closet". Weaspired to have humble, practical garb that was easy to sew and Japanesegarb really fit the bill. Because we didn't feel like we were being"watched" by peers, we felt free to research new stuff and try thingsout. We grew in numbers. As our research base grew, we decided tobecome Clan Hosokawa. A division started to slowly grow- those whowanted to research for more cultural/period accuracy and recognition bythe mainstream SCA and those who clung to the specialness of our "insidejoke" and humble, silly village. The lord of the house and I were goingthrough our own divisions and in 2004 we broke up. I retired as lady ofthe clan, but the new lady of the clan didn't have the sameleadership-leanings. The lord became lost. I moved to Oertha. Theclan slowly crumbled and a new lord of the clan stepped up. Since Ihave moved back from Oertha, I have kept my Hosokawa name, but am muchmore involved with the fencing guild than the remaining Clan Hosokawa.We are still friends.You might see Takeshi or Sora at the heavy fighter practice at Gather onWednesday nights- they are the leaders of Clan Hosokawa.-Yukiko Hosokawa (Hosokawa Yukiko)Sacramento group?<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/24514;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM201MmkwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAzI0NTE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjM1NzQ0NTc-> Posted by: "Horatius at the Bridge" horatius314@...<mailto:horatius314@...?Subject= Re%3ASacramento%20group%3F>yamazakigoro <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yamazakigoro> Wed Oct 8, 2008 5:09 pm (PDT) Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area.I was wondering if they were still around.If someone from that group is still around, could they please contactme.Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules andabsolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                        • Anthony Bryant
                          ... It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt. Effingham
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                            On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jeanel Walker wrote:

                            > so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                            > because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                            > Am I understanding this right?
                            >
                            >

                            It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt.


                            Effingham
                          • Troxell, Mark A.
                            The white ties do function as and are in effect a belt for the hakama. You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the SCA, you just need
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                              The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the hakama.




                              You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                              SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                              recognized as a peer by the chivalry.



                              Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one morning
                              an declare themselves samurai.



                              From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of Anthony Bryant
                              Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:40 AM
                              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question




                              On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jeanel Walker wrote:

                              > so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                              > because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                              > Am I understanding this right?
                              >
                              >

                              It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt.

                              Effingham





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • JL Badgley
                              On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A. ... So does a white cord for a monk s habit or white cords that hold up chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However,
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                                On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                                <troxelma@...> wrote:
                                > The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the hakama.

                                So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                                chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                                white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.

                                Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                                it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                                representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                                the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                                the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                                doublet).

                                The koshi-himo hold the hakama onto the person. The obi is what holds
                                up the sword, whether the sword is thrust through the obi or it is
                                hung from it.

                                Furthermore, a white belt is special because a leather belt is usually
                                *not* white. Whereas for fabric, white is the default (easier to
                                bleach things white than to try to get color to stay).

                                > You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                                > SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                                > recognized as a peer by the chivalry.

                                I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you are a knight but I find this to be
                                incorrect and demeaning to knighthood as it appears to imply that
                                being a knight is something 'anyone' can do. Can they? I believe
                                that the time and effort one has to devote is considerable, and that
                                it is not something that everyone can do, any more than everyone can
                                become a billionaire. It takes a certain amount of talent and
                                physical ability as well as hard work and training to become a knight.
                                That is why knighthood is valued and praised.

                                > Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one morning
                                > an declare themselves samurai.

                                Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                                could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                                become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                                that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.

                                I respect the chivalry, and not because I'm afraid someone would bash
                                my head in if I said otherwise but because they put a lot of work and
                                effort to achieve the level they do. There are some *knights* I don't
                                respect, but that is personal and has nothing to do with the Order
                                itself.

                                Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                                between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                                the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                                know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                                knight--unless we are going to say all people who claim to be bushi
                                are claiming to be knights, anyway, in which case most of us doing
                                Japanese should just stop playing altogether.

                                I do agree that people shouldn't wear white obi. In normal clothing
                                it wouldn't be apparent (but then, if you *must* wear a belt to show
                                people you are a knight, then what else is wrong?), but on the field,
                                in armour, you would know.

                                All that said, until a ruling comes down from Laurel (and I've yet to
                                see one, one way or the other), I will respect the prejudices of
                                others and purposefully make my garments inaccurately to suit their
                                needs.


                                -Ii
                              • Troxell, Mark A.
                                Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage.... From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                                  Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to
                                  your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage....



                                  From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  Of JL Badgley
                                  Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:47 AM
                                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question



                                  On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                                  <troxelma@... <mailto:troxelma%40westinghouse.com> > wrote:
                                  > The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the
                                  hakama.

                                  So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                                  chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                                  white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.

                                  Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                                  it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                                  representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                                  the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                                  the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                                  doublet).

                                  The koshi-himo hold the hakama onto the person. The obi is what holds
                                  up the sword, whether the sword is thrust through the obi or it is
                                  hung from it.

                                  Furthermore, a white belt is special because a leather belt is usually
                                  *not* white. Whereas for fabric, white is the default (easier to
                                  bleach things white than to try to get color to stay).

                                  > You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                                  > SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                                  > recognized as a peer by the chivalry.

                                  I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you are a knight but I find this to be
                                  incorrect and demeaning to knighthood as it appears to imply that
                                  being a knight is something 'anyone' can do. Can they? I believe
                                  that the time and effort one has to devote is considerable, and that
                                  it is not something that everyone can do, any more than everyone can
                                  become a billionaire. It takes a certain amount of talent and
                                  physical ability as well as hard work and training to become a knight.
                                  That is why knighthood is valued and praised.

                                  > Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one
                                  morning
                                  > an declare themselves samurai.

                                  Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                                  could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                                  become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                                  that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.

                                  I respect the chivalry, and not because I'm afraid someone would bash
                                  my head in if I said otherwise but because they put a lot of work and
                                  effort to achieve the level they do. There are some *knights* I don't
                                  respect, but that is personal and has nothing to do with the Order
                                  itself.

                                  Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                                  between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                                  the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                                  know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                                  knight--unless we are going to say all people who claim to be bushi
                                  are claiming to be knights, anyway, in which case most of us doing
                                  Japanese should just stop playing altogether.

                                  I do agree that people shouldn't wear white obi. In normal clothing
                                  it wouldn't be apparent (but then, if you *must* wear a belt to show
                                  people you are a knight, then what else is wrong?), but on the field,
                                  in armour, you would know.

                                  All that said, until a ruling comes down from Laurel (and I've yet to
                                  see one, one way or the other), I will respect the prejudices of
                                  others and purposefully make my garments inaccurately to suit their
                                  needs.

                                  -Ii





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • JL Badgley
                                  On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Troxell, Mark A. ... I apologize if I have offended. I m afraid this is something I can be perhaps overly passionate about,
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                                    On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                                    <troxelma@...> wrote:
                                    > Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to
                                    > your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage....
                                    >
                                    I apologize if I have offended. I'm afraid this is something I can be
                                    perhaps overly passionate about, and much of my argument was not meant
                                    to be directed at you, specifically.

                                    -Ii
                                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Soleig! ... Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and their supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
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                                      Noble Cousins!

                                      Greetings from Soleig!
                                      >
                                      > <troxelma@...> wrote:
                                      >> The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the
                                      >> hakama.
                                      >
                                      > So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                                      > chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                                      > white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.
                                      Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and their
                                      supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those who find offense over
                                      the white belt of a cisterian (sp) monk.
                                      > Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                                      > it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                                      > representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                                      > the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                                      > the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                                      > doublet).
                                      That is correct. The problem is that various members of the chivalry
                                      have
                                      adopted a wide range of more or less white thingies that go around their
                                      waist.
                                      > Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                                      > could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                                      > become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                                      > that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.
                                      Historically, it all depended on when you are talking about. There was
                                      a famous "sword hunt" during the late sixteenth century. Basically, it
                                      really depended upon the economics of soldiers at the time.
                                      > Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                                      > between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                                      > the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                                      > know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                                      > knight--
                                      I wish that this were uniformly true. I do however know at least one
                                      Japanese knight who is rather protective of the white belt. However,
                                      his take on a white belt for his personal use, while made of cloth, is
                                      a big mucking thing which does not at all look like a part of his
                                      hakama.

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • konradvonb
                                      Greetings: This is just another way that the trappings of the SCA disrupt the way that things were actually done in period. Though technically not a belt it
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 13, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Greetings:

                                        This is just another way that the trappings of the SCA disrupt
                                        the way that things were actually done in period. Though technically
                                        not a 'belt' it will look enough like a belt that you should probably
                                        expect every other person to ask you what you were thinking. You
                                        have history on your side, but I don't think that will convince
                                        anyone :(

                                        I guess you have a few options:

                                        1. Make the historically correct hakama and be prepared to defend
                                        yourself from anyone who thinks that you're actually trying to
                                        portray yourself as a knight of the SCA without spurs and a chain.

                                        2. Make the hakama with matching fabric or is of a color other than
                                        those that are protected by sumptuary traditions.

                                        3. Get knighted. The question is moot!


                                        Konrad von Krixen
                                        Artemisia


                                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Noble Cousins!
                                        >
                                        > Greetings from Soleig!
                                        > >
                                        > > <troxelma@...> wrote:
                                        > >> The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for
                                        the
                                        > >> hakama.
                                        > >
                                        > > So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold
                                        up
                                        > > chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look'
                                        like a
                                        > > white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not
                                        function.
                                        > Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and
                                        their
                                        > supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those who find offense over
                                        > the white belt of a cisterian (sp) monk.
                                        > > Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-
                                        himo,
                                        > > it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                                        > > representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be
                                        for
                                        > > the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons
                                        of
                                        > > the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                                        > > doublet).
                                        > That is correct. The problem is that various members of the
                                        chivalry
                                        > have
                                        > adopted a wide range of more or less white thingies that go around
                                        their
                                        > waist.
                                        > > Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but
                                        they
                                        > > could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they
                                        could go
                                        > > become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was
                                        later
                                        > > that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.
                                        > Historically, it all depended on when you are talking about. There
                                        was
                                        > a famous "sword hunt" during the late sixteenth century. Basically,
                                        it
                                        > really depended upon the economics of soldiers at the time.
                                        > > Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the
                                        difference
                                        > > between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell
                                        that
                                        > > the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                                        > > know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                                        > > knight--
                                        > I wish that this were uniformly true. I do however know at least one
                                        > Japanese knight who is rather protective of the white belt. However,
                                        > his take on a white belt for his personal use, while made of cloth,
                                        is
                                        > a big mucking thing which does not at all look like a part of his
                                        > hakama.
                                        >
                                        > Your Humble Servant
                                        > Solveig Throndardottir
                                        > Amateur Scholar
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
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