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Re: Question

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  • wodeford
    ... If you Google how to put on hakama you will find a variety of different methods - different martial arts schools often come up with different stylistic
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 7, 2008
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "pernika2003" <pernika2003@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello!!
      >
      > I just one have quick question.
      > I made a pair of hakama for my boyfriend and I have no idea how to
      > tie them on.

      If you Google "how to put on hakama" you will find a variety of
      different methods - different martial arts schools often come up with
      different stylistic variations. Find one he likes.

      On the rare occasions that my brother, "Saionji no Spike" comes out to
      play, I tie the front tie first with the knot tied above the obi knot.
      Then I bring the back ties around and tie them in the front in a
      simple bow. (This translates to being able to untie them and drop the
      back for privy visits.)

      > Does he wear an obi under it, to hold the kosode?
      Yes. In fact, the obi should be knotted in the back - it will help the
      rear pleats of the hakama stand out from the waist band.

      Saionji no Hanae
      West Kingdom
    • Marten
      Here are directions on how to fold a hakama: http://members.aol.com/naginata/hakama.html Here are directions on how to tie a hakama:
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 7, 2008
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        Here are directions on how to fold a hakama:

        http://members.aol.com/naginata/hakama.html

        Here are directions on how to tie a hakama:

        http://www.bujindesign.com/info/hakama_tying.pdf

        (ignore the first step about tucking in the front of the hakama to the
        obi. Only aikidoka wear pajamas under their hakamas).

        Here is a link from my kendo/iaido blog about how to tie an obi:

        http://kendo-blog.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/10/how-to-tie-an-o.html

        An obi is nice if you are going to be carrying a katana, wakizashi or
        tanto. It is not necessary to hold up the hakama. Do NOT tie it
        outside the hakama.

        Good luck.

        Marten





        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "pernika2003" <pernika2003@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello!!
        >
        > I just one have quick question.
        > I made a pair of hakama for my boyfriend and I have no idea how to tie
        > them on. Does he wear an obi under it, to hold the kosode?
        > Ok that was two questions =)
        > Please help!
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Eliza
        >
      • JL Badgley
        ... One more note: If you throw on a kataginu or hitatare, the obi should go over them (i.e. kosode- kataginu/hitatare- obi- hakama) -Ii
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 7, 2008
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          On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:14 AM, Marten <kenshifencer@...> wrote:
          >
          > http://kendo-blog.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/10/how-to-tie-an-o.html
          >
          > An obi is nice if you are going to be carrying a katana, wakizashi or
          > tanto. It is not necessary to hold up the hakama. Do NOT tie it
          > outside the hakama.
          >
          > Good luck.
          >
          > Marten

          One more note: If you throw on a kataginu or hitatare, the obi should
          go over them (i.e. kosode->kataginu/hitatare->obi->hakama)

          -Ii
        • tatsumechan
          Speaking about the proper way to wear hakama. Did anyone see that merchant at Pennsic who was selling Japanese clothes and wearing his obi on top of his
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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            Speaking about the proper way to wear hakama. Did anyone see that
            merchant at Pennsic who was selling Japanese clothes and wearing his
            obi on top of his hakama? (and then all his customers following suit?)

            Tatsume
          • Rick Johnson
            ... merchant at Pennsic who was selling Japanese clothes and wearing his obi on top of his hakama? (and then all his customers following suit?) I don t suppose
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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              >> Speaking about the proper way to wear hakama. Did anyone see that
              merchant at Pennsic who was selling Japanese clothes and wearing his
              obi on top of his hakama? (and then all his customers following suit?)

              I don't suppose you have a pic?
              Sometimes a bad example helps more than a good.
              A bad next to a good is even better.




              Rick Johnson,
              PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
              geocities.com/RikJohnson39
              "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security will soon find that they have neither!"

              Please note: message attached


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            • Takeda Yoshi
              Konnichiwa I am new to posting on this group and this question interests me. I did not make Pennsic so I did not see this merchant in question. However, in
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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                Konnichiwa

                I am new to posting on this group and this question interests me. I did not make Pennsic so I did not see this merchant in question. However, in many source books it is not uncommon to see an obi tied over the top of the hakama. Additionally, in some of the books I have looked in, there is representation of obi's inside the hakama as well as outside.

                Takeda Yoshimoto


                ---- tatsumechan <kanamori.tatsume@...> wrote:
                > Speaking about the proper way to wear hakama. Did anyone see that
                > merchant at Pennsic who was selling Japanese clothes and wearing his
                > obi on top of his hakama? (and then all his customers following suit?)
                >
                > Tatsume
                >
              • Anthony Bryant
                ... I don t know what sourcebooks these are, but something is wrong. As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the fabric of the hakama
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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                  On Oct 8, 2008, at 12:48 PM, Takeda Yoshi wrote:

                  > Konnichiwa
                  >
                  > I am new to posting on this group and this question interests me. I
                  > did not make Pennsic so I did not see this merchant in question.
                  > However, in many source books it is not uncommon to see an obi tied
                  > over the top of the hakama. Additionally, in some of the books I
                  > have looked in, there is representation of obi's inside the hakama
                  > as well as outside.
                  >
                  I don't know what "sourcebooks" these are, but something is wrong.

                  As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
                  fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
                  misinterpreting what they are seeing.


                  effingham
                • Eliza Hulce
                  Thank you very much for all the help.  We were successful and he looks pretty snazzy  =) Mari   ... From: JL Badgley To:
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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                    Thank you very much for all the help.  We were successful and he looks pretty snazzy  =)

                    Mari

                     


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>
                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 7:38:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question


                    On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:14 AM, Marten <kenshifencer@ hotmail.com> wrote:
                    >
                    > http://kendo- blog.typepad. com/my_weblog/ 2008/10/how- to-tie-an- o.html
                    >
                    > An obi is nice if you are going to be carrying a katana, wakizashi or
                    > tanto. It is not necessary to hold up the hakama. Do NOT tie it
                    > outside the hakama.
                    >
                    > Good luck.
                    >
                    > Marten

                    One more note: If you throw on a kataginu or hitatare, the obi should
                    go over them (i.e. kosode->kataginu/ hitatare- >obi->hakama)

                    -Ii





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Horatius at the Bridge
                    Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area. I was wondering if they were still around. If someone from that group is still around,
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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                      Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area. I was wondering if they were still around.

                      If someone from that group is still around, could they please contact me.
                      Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell
                      _________________________________________________________________
                      See how Windows Mobile brings your life together�at home, work, or on the go.
                      http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • tatsumechan
                      ... So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that s the correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about? Tatsume
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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                        >
                        > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
                        > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
                        > misinterpreting what they are seeing.
                        >
                        >
                        > effingham
                        >

                        So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
                        correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

                        Tatsume
                      • wodeford
                        ... Yes. For example, here, with formal and semi-formal hitatare: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 8, 2008
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                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tatsumechan" <kanamori.tatsume@...>
                          wrote:

                          > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
                          > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

                          Yes.
                          For example, here, with formal and semi-formal hitatare:
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/19.htm

                          As opposed to these example, in which the hakama himo match the rest
                          of the hakama:
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/27.htm

                          One of the reasons you don't see much of this in the SCA is because of
                          the whole white-belt-reserved-for-chivalry thing.

                          Saionji no Hanae
                          West Kingdom
                        • Anthony Bryant
                          ... Yup. It s the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white ties. But duplicating them looks like you re wearing a white belt. Effingham
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                            On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:42 PM, tatsumechan wrote:

                            >
                            > >
                            > > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the
                            > > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is
                            > > misinterpreting what they are seeing.
                            >
                            > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the
                            > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?
                            >
                            Yup.

                            It's the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white
                            ties. But duplicating them looks like you're wearing a white belt.


                            Effingham
                          • Leonard, Elizabeth A. @ Sacramento
                            Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in Golden Rivers you speak of... Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                              Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in Golden
                              Rivers you speak of...


                              Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA personas
                              got bored with being European. The garb started to feel like a T-shirt
                              and jeans. The cultural stuff seemed to be shared only by snooty folks
                              who liked to point out how little we knew. It wasn't fun. We decided
                              to become the first Japanese house we'd heard of: The Fishing Village.
                              We felt a new freedom- freedom to be silly with our personas. We
                              invented "Butt Sumo", the office of "Suishi" and "the Ninja Closet". We
                              aspired to have humble, practical garb that was easy to sew and Japanese
                              garb really fit the bill. Because we didn't feel like we were being
                              "watched" by peers, we felt free to research new stuff and try things
                              out. We grew in numbers. As our research base grew, we decided to
                              become Clan Hosokawa. A division started to slowly grow- those who
                              wanted to research for more cultural/period accuracy and recognition by
                              the mainstream SCA and those who clung to the specialness of our "inside
                              joke" and humble, silly village. The lord of the house and I were going
                              through our own divisions and in 2004 we broke up. I retired as lady of
                              the clan, but the new lady of the clan didn't have the same
                              leadership-leanings. The lord became lost. I moved to Oertha. The
                              clan slowly crumbled and a new lord of the clan stepped up. Since I
                              have moved back from Oertha, I have kept my Hosokawa name, but am much
                              more involved with the fencing guild than the remaining Clan Hosokawa.
                              We are still friends.


                              You might see Takeshi or Sora at the heavy fighter practice at Gather on
                              Wednesday nights- they are the leaders of Clan Hosokawa.


                              -Yukiko Hosokawa (Hosokawa Yukiko)


                              Sacramento group?
                              <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/24514;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM201Mm
                              kwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAz
                              I0NTE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjM1NzQ0NTc->


                              Posted by: "Horatius at the Bridge" horatius314@...
                              <mailto:horatius314@...?Subject= Re%3ASacramento%20group%3F>
                              yamazakigoro <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yamazakigoro>


                              Wed Oct 8, 2008 5:09 pm (PDT)


                              Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area.
                              I was wondering if they were still around.

                              If someone from that group is still around, could they please contact
                              me.
                              Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and
                              absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jeanel Walker
                              so you cant be formal is what your saying? because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie Am I understanding this right? Change is in the heart... age
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                                so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                                because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                                Am I understanding this right?

                                Change is in the heart... age is in the mind... Beauty and or truth is in the eye of the beholder....But Kindness is Eternal.
                                Jeanel Walker


                                --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
                                From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
                                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question
                                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 12:11 PM













                                On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:42 PM, tatsumechan wrote:



                                >

                                > >

                                > > As many hakama traditionally have white ties (in contrast to the

                                > > fabric of the hakama itself), I am assuming that someone is

                                > > misinterpreting what they are seeing.

                                >

                                > So let me get this straight, the hakama-himo (believe that's the

                                > correct term) was white on the hakama you are talking about?

                                >

                                Yup.



                                It's the curse of the SCA re-enactor. Many formal hakama had white

                                ties. But duplicating them looks like you're wearing a white belt.



                                Effingham



























                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Horatius at the Bridge
                                This is truly a sad tale. Especially now that I have returned to the area after my wanderings. (Adenvelt was hot, Northshield was cold. An Tir was... An Tir.)
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                                  This is truly a sad tale. Especially now that I have returned to the area after my wanderings. (Adenvelt was hot, Northshield was cold. An Tir was... An Tir.)
                                  I suppose I shall have to seek them out and find what remains.
                                  Thank you for your tale, sad though it was. Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules and absolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell



                                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.comFrom: elizabeth.leonard@...: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:25:42 -0500Subject: [SCA-JML] Re:Sacramento group?




                                  Horatius, I shall tell you the tale of the Japanese group in GoldenRivers you speak of...Once upon a time in about 1999, three Scottish/Generic/Euro SCA personasgot bored with being European. The garb started to feel like a T-shirtand jeans. The cultural stuff seemed to be shared only by snooty folkswho liked to point out how little we knew. It wasn't fun. We decidedto become the first Japanese house we'd heard of: The Fishing Village.We felt a new freedom- freedom to be silly with our personas. Weinvented "Butt Sumo", the office of "Suishi" and "the Ninja Closet". Weaspired to have humble, practical garb that was easy to sew and Japanesegarb really fit the bill. Because we didn't feel like we were being"watched" by peers, we felt free to research new stuff and try thingsout. We grew in numbers. As our research base grew, we decided tobecome Clan Hosokawa. A division started to slowly grow- those whowanted to research for more cultural/period accuracy and recognition bythe mainstream SCA and those who clung to the specialness of our "insidejoke" and humble, silly village. The lord of the house and I were goingthrough our own divisions and in 2004 we broke up. I retired as lady ofthe clan, but the new lady of the clan didn't have the sameleadership-leanings. The lord became lost. I moved to Oertha. Theclan slowly crumbled and a new lord of the clan stepped up. Since Ihave moved back from Oertha, I have kept my Hosokawa name, but am muchmore involved with the fencing guild than the remaining Clan Hosokawa.We are still friends.You might see Takeshi or Sora at the heavy fighter practice at Gather onWednesday nights- they are the leaders of Clan Hosokawa.-Yukiko Hosokawa (Hosokawa Yukiko)Sacramento group?<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/24514;_ylc=X3oDMTJyM201MmkwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAzI0NTE0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjM1NzQ0NTc-> Posted by: "Horatius at the Bridge" horatius314@...<mailto:horatius314@...?Subject= Re%3ASacramento%20group%3F>yamazakigoro <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yamazakigoro> Wed Oct 8, 2008 5:09 pm (PDT) Several years ago, there was a japanese group in the Golden Rivers area.I was wondering if they were still around.If someone from that group is still around, could they please contactme.Thanks.Computers are alot like Old Testament gods; a lot of rules andabsolutely no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                                • Anthony Bryant
                                  ... It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt. Effingham
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                                    On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jeanel Walker wrote:

                                    > so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                                    > because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                                    > Am I understanding this right?
                                    >
                                    >

                                    It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt.


                                    Effingham
                                  • Troxell, Mark A.
                                    The white ties do function as and are in effect a belt for the hakama. You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the SCA, you just need
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                                      The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the hakama.




                                      You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                                      SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                                      recognized as a peer by the chivalry.



                                      Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one morning
                                      an declare themselves samurai.



                                      From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                      Of Anthony Bryant
                                      Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:40 AM
                                      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question




                                      On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jeanel Walker wrote:

                                      > so you cant be formal is what your saying?
                                      > because they cant distinguish between a belt and a tie
                                      > Am I understanding this right?
                                      >
                                      >

                                      It wraps around your waist, and it *looks* like a belt.

                                      Effingham





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • JL Badgley
                                      On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A. ... So does a white cord for a monk s habit or white cords that hold up chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However,
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                                        On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                                        <troxelma@...> wrote:
                                        > The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the hakama.

                                        So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                                        chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                                        white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.

                                        Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                                        it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                                        representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                                        the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                                        the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                                        doublet).

                                        The koshi-himo hold the hakama onto the person. The obi is what holds
                                        up the sword, whether the sword is thrust through the obi or it is
                                        hung from it.

                                        Furthermore, a white belt is special because a leather belt is usually
                                        *not* white. Whereas for fabric, white is the default (easier to
                                        bleach things white than to try to get color to stay).

                                        > You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                                        > SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                                        > recognized as a peer by the chivalry.

                                        I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you are a knight but I find this to be
                                        incorrect and demeaning to knighthood as it appears to imply that
                                        being a knight is something 'anyone' can do. Can they? I believe
                                        that the time and effort one has to devote is considerable, and that
                                        it is not something that everyone can do, any more than everyone can
                                        become a billionaire. It takes a certain amount of talent and
                                        physical ability as well as hard work and training to become a knight.
                                        That is why knighthood is valued and praised.

                                        > Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one morning
                                        > an declare themselves samurai.

                                        Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                                        could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                                        become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                                        that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.

                                        I respect the chivalry, and not because I'm afraid someone would bash
                                        my head in if I said otherwise but because they put a lot of work and
                                        effort to achieve the level they do. There are some *knights* I don't
                                        respect, but that is personal and has nothing to do with the Order
                                        itself.

                                        Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                                        between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                                        the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                                        know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                                        knight--unless we are going to say all people who claim to be bushi
                                        are claiming to be knights, anyway, in which case most of us doing
                                        Japanese should just stop playing altogether.

                                        I do agree that people shouldn't wear white obi. In normal clothing
                                        it wouldn't be apparent (but then, if you *must* wear a belt to show
                                        people you are a knight, then what else is wrong?), but on the field,
                                        in armour, you would know.

                                        All that said, until a ruling comes down from Laurel (and I've yet to
                                        see one, one way or the other), I will respect the prejudices of
                                        others and purposefully make my garments inaccurately to suit their
                                        needs.


                                        -Ii
                                      • Troxell, Mark A.
                                        Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage.... From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                                          Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to
                                          your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage....



                                          From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                          Of JL Badgley
                                          Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:47 AM
                                          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Question



                                          On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                                          <troxelma@... <mailto:troxelma%40westinghouse.com> > wrote:
                                          > The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the
                                          hakama.

                                          So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                                          chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                                          white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.

                                          Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                                          it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                                          representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                                          the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                                          the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                                          doublet).

                                          The koshi-himo hold the hakama onto the person. The obi is what holds
                                          up the sword, whether the sword is thrust through the obi or it is
                                          hung from it.

                                          Furthermore, a white belt is special because a leather belt is usually
                                          *not* white. Whereas for fabric, white is the default (easier to
                                          bleach things white than to try to get color to stay).

                                          > You can be formal and correct in the wearing of this garment in the
                                          > SCA, you just need to invest the appropriate time and effort to be
                                          > recognized as a peer by the chivalry.

                                          I'm sorry, sir, I don't know if you are a knight but I find this to be
                                          incorrect and demeaning to knighthood as it appears to imply that
                                          being a knight is something 'anyone' can do. Can they? I believe
                                          that the time and effort one has to devote is considerable, and that
                                          it is not something that everyone can do, any more than everyone can
                                          become a billionaire. It takes a certain amount of talent and
                                          physical ability as well as hard work and training to become a knight.
                                          That is why knighthood is valued and praised.

                                          > Historically, any farmer or fisherman couldn't just wake up one
                                          morning
                                          > an declare themselves samurai.

                                          Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                                          could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                                          become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                                          that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.

                                          I respect the chivalry, and not because I'm afraid someone would bash
                                          my head in if I said otherwise but because they put a lot of work and
                                          effort to achieve the level they do. There are some *knights* I don't
                                          respect, but that is personal and has nothing to do with the Order
                                          itself.

                                          Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                                          between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                                          the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                                          know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                                          knight--unless we are going to say all people who claim to be bushi
                                          are claiming to be knights, anyway, in which case most of us doing
                                          Japanese should just stop playing altogether.

                                          I do agree that people shouldn't wear white obi. In normal clothing
                                          it wouldn't be apparent (but then, if you *must* wear a belt to show
                                          people you are a knight, then what else is wrong?), but on the field,
                                          in armour, you would know.

                                          All that said, until a ruling comes down from Laurel (and I've yet to
                                          see one, one way or the other), I will respect the prejudices of
                                          others and purposefully make my garments inaccurately to suit their
                                          needs.

                                          -Ii





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • JL Badgley
                                          On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Troxell, Mark A. ... I apologize if I have offended. I m afraid this is something I can be perhaps overly passionate about,
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
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                                            On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Troxell, Mark A.
                                            <troxelma@...> wrote:
                                            > Your ability to extrapolate my thoughts into implied counterpoint to
                                            > your arguments is impressive. I choose to disengage....
                                            >
                                            I apologize if I have offended. I'm afraid this is something I can be
                                            perhaps overly passionate about, and much of my argument was not meant
                                            to be directed at you, specifically.

                                            -Ii
                                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Soleig! ... Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and their supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
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                                              Noble Cousins!

                                              Greetings from Soleig!
                                              >
                                              > <troxelma@...> wrote:
                                              >> The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for the
                                              >> hakama.
                                              >
                                              > So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold up
                                              > chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look' like a
                                              > white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not function.
                                              Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and their
                                              supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those who find offense over
                                              the white belt of a cisterian (sp) monk.
                                              > Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-himo,
                                              > it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                                              > representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be for
                                              > the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons of
                                              > the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                                              > doublet).
                                              That is correct. The problem is that various members of the chivalry
                                              have
                                              adopted a wide range of more or less white thingies that go around their
                                              waist.
                                              > Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but they
                                              > could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they could go
                                              > become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was later
                                              > that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.
                                              Historically, it all depended on when you are talking about. There was
                                              a famous "sword hunt" during the late sixteenth century. Basically, it
                                              really depended upon the economics of soldiers at the time.
                                              > Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the difference
                                              > between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell that
                                              > the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                                              > know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                                              > knight--
                                              I wish that this were uniformly true. I do however know at least one
                                              Japanese knight who is rather protective of the white belt. However,
                                              his take on a white belt for his personal use, while made of cloth, is
                                              a big mucking thing which does not at all look like a part of his
                                              hakama.

                                              Your Humble Servant
                                              Solveig Throndardottir
                                              Amateur Scholar






                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • konradvonb
                                              Greetings: This is just another way that the trappings of the SCA disrupt the way that things were actually done in period. Though technically not a belt it
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Oct 13, 2008
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                                                Greetings:

                                                This is just another way that the trappings of the SCA disrupt
                                                the way that things were actually done in period. Though technically
                                                not a 'belt' it will look enough like a belt that you should probably
                                                expect every other person to ask you what you were thinking. You
                                                have history on your side, but I don't think that will convince
                                                anyone :(

                                                I guess you have a few options:

                                                1. Make the historically correct hakama and be prepared to defend
                                                yourself from anyone who thinks that you're actually trying to
                                                portray yourself as a knight of the SCA without spurs and a chain.

                                                2. Make the hakama with matching fabric or is of a color other than
                                                those that are protected by sumptuary traditions.

                                                3. Get knighted. The question is moot!


                                                Konrad von Krixen
                                                Artemisia


                                                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Noble Cousins!
                                                >
                                                > Greetings from Soleig!
                                                > >
                                                > > <troxelma@...> wrote:
                                                > >> The white ties do function as and are in effect a "belt" for
                                                the
                                                > >> hakama.
                                                > >
                                                > > So does a white cord for a monk's habit or white cords that hold
                                                up
                                                > > chauses, brais, hosen, etc. However, Because they don't 'look'
                                                like a
                                                > > white belt, people don't have a problem. It is form, not
                                                function.
                                                > Actually, it all depends on just how rabid the local chivalry and
                                                their
                                                > supporters are. Yes, I have encountered those who find offense over
                                                > the white belt of a cisterian (sp) monk.
                                                > > Furthermore, if it were function, then it wouldn't be the koshi-
                                                himo,
                                                > > it would be the obi. The purpose of a belt in period European
                                                > > representations of knights I've seen appears to most commonly be
                                                for
                                                > > the purpose of holding a sword--they don't hold up the pantaloons
                                                of
                                                > > the wearers (those are most often tied to the brais or to the
                                                > > doublet).
                                                > That is correct. The problem is that various members of the
                                                chivalry
                                                > have
                                                > adopted a wide range of more or less white thingies that go around
                                                their
                                                > waist.
                                                > > Um, actually, they could. They may not be taken seriously, but
                                                they
                                                > > could claim to be a samurai. If they acquired a sword, they
                                                could go
                                                > > become a low-ranking ashigaru. Poof, you're a samurai. It was
                                                later
                                                > > that this was clamped down in a rigid hierarchy.
                                                > Historically, it all depended on when you are talking about. There
                                                was
                                                > a famous "sword hunt" during the late sixteenth century. Basically,
                                                it
                                                > really depended upon the economics of soldiers at the time.
                                                > > Personally, I tend to believe that most people can tell the
                                                difference
                                                > > between a formal Japanese outfit and an SCA knight, and can tell
                                                that
                                                > > the Japanese person isn't trying to be a knight in the same way we
                                                > > know that the person in a monk's habit isn't trying to say he's a
                                                > > knight--
                                                > I wish that this were uniformly true. I do however know at least one
                                                > Japanese knight who is rather protective of the white belt. However,
                                                > his take on a white belt for his personal use, while made of cloth,
                                                is
                                                > a big mucking thing which does not at all look like a part of his
                                                > hakama.
                                                >
                                                > Your Humble Servant
                                                > Solveig Throndardottir
                                                > Amateur Scholar
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
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