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Re: Sitting Seiza

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  • Marten
    ... Your Grace, This is what Earl Hartman, a famous US Kyudoka had to say: Speaking of weird sitting postures, am I the only person out there who has trouble
    Message 1 of 36 , Oct 1, 2008
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "konradvonb" <konradvonb@...> wrote:
      >
      > Seiza is painful, but tatehiza is way worse.
      >
      > Konrad
      > Artemisia

      Your Grace,

      This is what Earl Hartman, a famous US Kyudoka had to say:

      "Speaking of weird sitting postures, am I the only person out there
      who has trouble with the concept of tatehiza? I find it hard to
      believe that anyone would actually sit like that. I have been told
      that it is some sort of posture for sitting in armor, but it is, if
      anything, more combatively "dead" than seiza, since it is so much
      harder to get moving (Yokkara shoi-to!) I have heard it said that when
      wearing armor it would be impossible to sit in seiza because the sune
      would dig into the back of the knee joints; if this is true I think it
      would be just as much of a problem with tatehiza, where your left knee
      is bent at an acute angle and you are sitting on top of your own ankle
      (huh?)."

      http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?s=0b3d03fdacdf04135c0163bb2a30ebeb&p=10973&postcount=17

      All I can say is that Stroud Sensei makes it look a lot easier than it
      really is.
    • Marten
      Ohayo Gozaimashita, Basically what he said below is what I have read about and been told by Stroud Sensei. Thus the oldest iaido forms are the Okuden
      Message 36 of 36 , Oct 10, 2008
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        Ohayo Gozaimashita,

        Basically what he said below is what I have read about and been told by
        Stroud Sensei. Thus the oldest iaido forms are the Okuden Tachiwaza
        which are felt to have been part of the original Hayashizaki-ryu (with
        thee possible exception of the Itomagoi waza which are performed from
        seiza).

        These forms are shown here <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhH_tPEnHFU>
        and suetome alone is shown here
        <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmNKFZ21GEM> .

        Forms or kata are listed as follows
        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C5%8D_Shinden-ry%C5%AB#Okuden> :


        Tachi-waza

        1. Ikizure
        2. Tsure-dachi
        3. Somakuri (Continuous Attack)
        4. Sodome (Attack One After Another)
        5. Shinobu (Secret Attack)
        6. Yukichigai (Receive and redirect the opponent's attack)
        7. Sodesuri-gaeshi (Pushing Through the Crowd)
        8. Mon-iri (Entering Through the Gate)
        9. Kabezoi (By the Wall)
        10. Uke-nagashi
        11. Ryohi-hikitsure
        12. Oikake-giri
        13. Gishiki
        Having said that, I've been authoritatively told that you can start an
        iaido enbu with any form you want, as long as it's Mae
        <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b6MXeNJnkA> . [;)]

        Marten

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:48 PM, Rick Johnson rikjohnson@... wrote:
        > > I watched that video last night and wondered what Lord would allow
        anyone to sit in a ready-posture that would make it so easy for them to
        draw, rise and attack?
        > >
        >
        > I've been doing some study on this, and though some budo traditions
        > seem to conflict, the following is based largely on pictorial evidence
        > combined with some written accounts (e.g. the famous tale of Lord
        > Asano) as well.
        >
        > First off, there are very few times I can think of where you would be
        > sitting in seiza with your sword in your obi. The only times I can
        > find are when you are 'working'. In which case, your question would
        > be something akin to 'why would you allow your guards to be able to
        > draw their weapons?', just as an analogy.
        >
        > BTW, the examples I can find of anything like 'tatehiza' almost
        > always have the person sitting on top of something else--e.g. their
        > armour box or a camp stool.
        >
        > However, the majority of times, whenever people sat down, their large
        > sword appears to be out and sitting on the ground next to them (if it
        > isn't collected and put in a separate room of the property). FWIW, I
        > have seen several techniques that appear to date from the 17th century
        > that are focused on this very posture.
        >
        > Looking at the history of seiza style iai: From everything I've seen,
        > seiza-posture in iai appears earliest in Omori Ryu, though that may be
        > debatable. I've yet to see anything attributed to Hayashizaki Jinsuke
        > Shigenobu that has the practitioner seated *in seiza* for the start of
        > the technique--I don't claim to know the entirety of the techniques
        > attributed to Hayashizaki Shigenobu, but I have yet to see one that
        > starts in seiza.
        >
        > Furthermore, in all styles I have yet to see that have suwari-waza and
        > have a lineage going back to before the Meiji period, seiza is the
        > *first* position learned. This gives credence to one particular
        > tradition that claims that the purpose behind seiza is not because you
        > would ever really attack from there, but that it began mostly as a
        > training procedure: Your hips are very limited when you are in seiza
        > position and you can more easily isolate some of the movements. It
        > also allows you to work in a smaller space, as those of us who have to
        > practice in our apartments can appreciate :)
        >
        > However, as I cannot find many examples of people seated in seiza with
        > their sword in their obi (and many times the sword is put down on the
        > person's right-hand side, blade in, though this is not universal), I
        > cannot come up with a martial reason to spend so much time on it
        > unless it is a training excercise. Furthermore, I don't see the
        > techniques at all prior to the Edo period.
        >
        > Not sure if I was able to capture that argument coherently or not, but
        > there you go.
        >
        >
        > -Ii
        >



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