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Re: Sitting Seiza

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  • konradvonb
    Seiza is painful, but tatehiza is way worse. Konrad Artemisia ... it s ... seiza ... those
    Message 1 of 36 , Oct 1, 2008
      Seiza is painful, but tatehiza is way worse.


      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tatsumechan" <kanamori.tatsume@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Wow. This question got a whole lot more input than I expected and
      > > all been useful. Random thought that just popped into my head, I
      > > wonder how many people would show up to a "Tips about sitting
      > > class at Pennsic.
      > >
      > > But yeah, basically this is what I get as major points:
      > > 1) your legs are going to fall asleep regardless
      > > 2) sit up straight
      > > 3) not everyone can do it (weight and flexibility being an issue)
      > >
      > > I'm glad they had us sit cross legged in elementary school for
      > > long assemblies.
      > >
      > > Arigatou gozaimasu Minna-dono
      > >
      > > Tatsume
      > >
    • Marten
      Ohayo Gozaimashita, Basically what he said below is what I have read about and been told by Stroud Sensei. Thus the oldest iaido forms are the Okuden
      Message 36 of 36 , Oct 10, 2008
        Ohayo Gozaimashita,

        Basically what he said below is what I have read about and been told by
        Stroud Sensei. Thus the oldest iaido forms are the Okuden Tachiwaza
        which are felt to have been part of the original Hayashizaki-ryu (with
        thee possible exception of the Itomagoi waza which are performed from

        These forms are shown here <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhH_tPEnHFU>
        and suetome alone is shown here
        <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmNKFZ21GEM> .

        Forms or kata are listed as follows
        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C5%8D_Shinden-ry%C5%AB#Okuden> :


        1. Ikizure
        2. Tsure-dachi
        3. Somakuri (Continuous Attack)
        4. Sodome (Attack One After Another)
        5. Shinobu (Secret Attack)
        6. Yukichigai (Receive and redirect the opponent's attack)
        7. Sodesuri-gaeshi (Pushing Through the Crowd)
        8. Mon-iri (Entering Through the Gate)
        9. Kabezoi (By the Wall)
        10. Uke-nagashi
        11. Ryohi-hikitsure
        12. Oikake-giri
        13. Gishiki
        Having said that, I've been authoritatively told that you can start an
        iaido enbu with any form you want, as long as it's Mae
        <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b6MXeNJnkA> . [;)]


        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
        > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:48 PM, Rick Johnson rikjohnson@... wrote:
        > > I watched that video last night and wondered what Lord would allow
        anyone to sit in a ready-posture that would make it so easy for them to
        draw, rise and attack?
        > >
        > I've been doing some study on this, and though some budo traditions
        > seem to conflict, the following is based largely on pictorial evidence
        > combined with some written accounts (e.g. the famous tale of Lord
        > Asano) as well.
        > First off, there are very few times I can think of where you would be
        > sitting in seiza with your sword in your obi. The only times I can
        > find are when you are 'working'. In which case, your question would
        > be something akin to 'why would you allow your guards to be able to
        > draw their weapons?', just as an analogy.
        > BTW, the examples I can find of anything like 'tatehiza' almost
        > always have the person sitting on top of something else--e.g. their
        > armour box or a camp stool.
        > However, the majority of times, whenever people sat down, their large
        > sword appears to be out and sitting on the ground next to them (if it
        > isn't collected and put in a separate room of the property). FWIW, I
        > have seen several techniques that appear to date from the 17th century
        > that are focused on this very posture.
        > Looking at the history of seiza style iai: From everything I've seen,
        > seiza-posture in iai appears earliest in Omori Ryu, though that may be
        > debatable. I've yet to see anything attributed to Hayashizaki Jinsuke
        > Shigenobu that has the practitioner seated *in seiza* for the start of
        > the technique--I don't claim to know the entirety of the techniques
        > attributed to Hayashizaki Shigenobu, but I have yet to see one that
        > starts in seiza.
        > Furthermore, in all styles I have yet to see that have suwari-waza and
        > have a lineage going back to before the Meiji period, seiza is the
        > *first* position learned. This gives credence to one particular
        > tradition that claims that the purpose behind seiza is not because you
        > would ever really attack from there, but that it began mostly as a
        > training procedure: Your hips are very limited when you are in seiza
        > position and you can more easily isolate some of the movements. It
        > also allows you to work in a smaller space, as those of us who have to
        > practice in our apartments can appreciate :)
        > However, as I cannot find many examples of people seated in seiza with
        > their sword in their obi (and many times the sword is put down on the
        > person's right-hand side, blade in, though this is not universal), I
        > cannot come up with a martial reason to spend so much time on it
        > unless it is a training excercise. Furthermore, I don't see the
        > techniques at all prior to the Edo period.
        > Not sure if I was able to capture that argument coherently or not, but
        > there you go.
        > -Ii

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