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Re: [SCA-JML] Sitting Seiza

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  • Don Eisele
    ... No offense taken :) I made an assumption based on my own experience that there wasn t hyperflexing going on. In my case, when my feet were on the floor,
    Message 1 of 36 , Sep 26, 2008
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      >Don,

      >Don't think I'm "busting your chops" by how I answered. I'm not. I'm wagering that you were not aware of an alternative. Some martial arts teachers take the "suck it up and deal with it" approach, and it sounded to me like you had been taught that way.

      No offense taken :)

      I made an assumption based on my own experience that there wasn't hyperflexing
      going on. In my case, when my feet were on the floor, they just fall asleep.
      There was no pain, just the strange feeling of your feet as you get up.
      After awhile, my body learned how to circulate, so I have no problems now.

      In our dojo, actually... it is recognized that some people aren't built for seiza.
      In those cases, they only go into seiza position for bowing, then sit cross-legged
      the rest of the time. Of course in that situation, it is impractical to have
      a cushion or chair device, so there isn't a lot you can do mechanically. Certainly
      in an SCA setting, there are more options and I hadn't thought about that much.


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    • Marten
      Ohayo Gozaimashita, Basically what he said below is what I have read about and been told by Stroud Sensei. Thus the oldest iaido forms are the Okuden
      Message 36 of 36 , Oct 10, 2008
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        Ohayo Gozaimashita,

        Basically what he said below is what I have read about and been told by
        Stroud Sensei. Thus the oldest iaido forms are the Okuden Tachiwaza
        which are felt to have been part of the original Hayashizaki-ryu (with
        thee possible exception of the Itomagoi waza which are performed from
        seiza).

        These forms are shown here <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhH_tPEnHFU>
        and suetome alone is shown here
        <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmNKFZ21GEM> .

        Forms or kata are listed as follows
        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C5%8D_Shinden-ry%C5%AB#Okuden> :


        Tachi-waza

        1. Ikizure
        2. Tsure-dachi
        3. Somakuri (Continuous Attack)
        4. Sodome (Attack One After Another)
        5. Shinobu (Secret Attack)
        6. Yukichigai (Receive and redirect the opponent's attack)
        7. Sodesuri-gaeshi (Pushing Through the Crowd)
        8. Mon-iri (Entering Through the Gate)
        9. Kabezoi (By the Wall)
        10. Uke-nagashi
        11. Ryohi-hikitsure
        12. Oikake-giri
        13. Gishiki
        Having said that, I've been authoritatively told that you can start an
        iaido enbu with any form you want, as long as it's Mae
        <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b6MXeNJnkA> . [;)]

        Marten

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:48 PM, Rick Johnson rikjohnson@... wrote:
        > > I watched that video last night and wondered what Lord would allow
        anyone to sit in a ready-posture that would make it so easy for them to
        draw, rise and attack?
        > >
        >
        > I've been doing some study on this, and though some budo traditions
        > seem to conflict, the following is based largely on pictorial evidence
        > combined with some written accounts (e.g. the famous tale of Lord
        > Asano) as well.
        >
        > First off, there are very few times I can think of where you would be
        > sitting in seiza with your sword in your obi. The only times I can
        > find are when you are 'working'. In which case, your question would
        > be something akin to 'why would you allow your guards to be able to
        > draw their weapons?', just as an analogy.
        >
        > BTW, the examples I can find of anything like 'tatehiza' almost
        > always have the person sitting on top of something else--e.g. their
        > armour box or a camp stool.
        >
        > However, the majority of times, whenever people sat down, their large
        > sword appears to be out and sitting on the ground next to them (if it
        > isn't collected and put in a separate room of the property). FWIW, I
        > have seen several techniques that appear to date from the 17th century
        > that are focused on this very posture.
        >
        > Looking at the history of seiza style iai: From everything I've seen,
        > seiza-posture in iai appears earliest in Omori Ryu, though that may be
        > debatable. I've yet to see anything attributed to Hayashizaki Jinsuke
        > Shigenobu that has the practitioner seated *in seiza* for the start of
        > the technique--I don't claim to know the entirety of the techniques
        > attributed to Hayashizaki Shigenobu, but I have yet to see one that
        > starts in seiza.
        >
        > Furthermore, in all styles I have yet to see that have suwari-waza and
        > have a lineage going back to before the Meiji period, seiza is the
        > *first* position learned. This gives credence to one particular
        > tradition that claims that the purpose behind seiza is not because you
        > would ever really attack from there, but that it began mostly as a
        > training procedure: Your hips are very limited when you are in seiza
        > position and you can more easily isolate some of the movements. It
        > also allows you to work in a smaller space, as those of us who have to
        > practice in our apartments can appreciate :)
        >
        > However, as I cannot find many examples of people seated in seiza with
        > their sword in their obi (and many times the sword is put down on the
        > person's right-hand side, blade in, though this is not universal), I
        > cannot come up with a martial reason to spend so much time on it
        > unless it is a training excercise. Furthermore, I don't see the
        > techniques at all prior to the Edo period.
        >
        > Not sure if I was able to capture that argument coherently or not, but
        > there you go.
        >
        >
        > -Ii
        >



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