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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Kamon Color

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Shhh! Just don t tell them. The real concern is that people not claim rank or status that was not awarded within the
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      > I'd also check about registering a device that's part of one's
      > family's
      > heraldry. At least there used to be a rule against this...still
      > may be.

      Shhh! Just don't tell them. The real concern is that people not claim
      rank or status that was not awarded within the Society. The reality
      of Japanese kamon is that they are generally used widely and not
      restricted to specific individuals. Consequently, you should not
      expect to have the same sort of problems with them that people
      can have with Anglo-Norman practice.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Elaine Koogler
      Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board? I do know that, in the
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
        Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
        Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board? I do
        know that, in the past at least, the use of these colors has been
        encouraged as they are not used as commonly as the others and are
        therefore more likely to pass as their use reduces the possibility of
        conflict.

        However, what the CoH does with Japanese heraldry is constantly
        changing. When I registered my heraldry originally, it was blazoned
        just like European heraldry and used all of the same rules/colors. A
        few years later, they changed the rules to say that mon would be
        registered without color and could be used in any color the owner
        preferred. Several years later, the rules again were changed to say
        that all Japanese mon (badge and device) had to be registered using only
        black and white. Again, the heraldry could be displayed in any color.
        More recently, they have gone back to the original rules, or so I
        understood. The thing that's been "fun" is that my blazons/emblazons
        have changed with each modification of the rules. It was during the all
        black and white period that I was granted my augmentation of arms...when
        I tried to register them as they were given to me (two golden dragons) I
        was told that I should register them in white/silver to conform to the
        rules regarding mon. I argued that the SCA rules said that I was a
        visitor to a European court and as such should use the augmentation as
        it was given to me! So....that's the way it's registered.

        Just a short history lesson on how Japanese heraldry has been done by
        the SCA over the past 30 years!

        Kiri (former Triton Principal Herald of Atlantia)

        Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
        >
        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig!
        > > While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
        > > fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
        > > as to the rule on badges).
        > One piece badges can be any of the standard "tinctures" used by the
        > college of arms. In particular: yellow, white, red, blue, and black.
        > Some other colors such as green and purple can also be used, but
        > are generally discouraged. Some other colors such as orange are
        > highly controversial.
        >
        > Your Humble Servant
        > Solveig Throndardottir
        > Amateur Scholar
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
      • Ezequiel
        Greetings! This is another reason I have come to love our culture and this site. Is interresting the way the CoH have made changes base on the needs of our SCA
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
          Greetings!
          This is another reason I have come to love our culture and this site.
          Is interresting the way the CoH have made changes base on the needs of
          our SCA culture.
          When my device passed the rule was B&W with the understanding that I
          could use it in any color that would clearly show it in my Japanese
          Garbs, and it was in Atlantia were I submitted.
          Today, I am not sure of the rules, I truely would like to know what
          they are doing with our submitions. Anyone have a clue?

          Humbly,
          -Sukeie
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly Japanese context, both colors are somewhat
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
            > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?

            I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
            Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
            have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
            purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Elaine Koogler
            I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry using purple and
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
              I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things
              have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry
              using purple and green specifically because there weren't a whole lot of
              devices registered with the CoH that used those colors...the other
              colors and the metals aare heavily used. Also encouraged were the
              unusual furs...plummety, etc. I even have one friend, a Countess, whose
              heraldry has a purple and green (divided per pale...vertically, for
              those of you who are unfamiliar with heraldic terminology) field! And,
              given that more and more heraldry is being registered, which means that
              bringing devices/badges clear of conflict, I find it hard to un is more
              difficult, I do not understand why they would do this. Yes, there is a
              restriction on orange as it does not conform with the 14th century basis
              for how we do heraldry in the SCA.

              However, it may have changed, so I will check with our current heraldic
              staff and inquire.

              Kiri

              Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
              >
              > Noble Cousin!
              >
              > Greetings from Solveig!
              >
              > > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
              > > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?
              >
              > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
              > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
              > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
              > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
              >
              > Your Humble Servant
              > Solveig Throndardottir
              > Amateur Scholar
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • Elaine Koogler
              I just heard back from one of the heralds who has, for several years, worked with the submission process (devices in particular) with the Wreath Herald. This
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
                I just heard back from one of the heralds who has, for several years,
                worked with the submission process (devices in particular) with the
                Wreath Herald. This is the person who handles submissions for the
                Laurel Sovereign of Arms. According to him:

                "Vert and purpure were certainly not common in period European heraldry.
                There were practical problems with vert fields (they blended into the
                background too well in most places), and the color was associated with
                the Saracens (green is quite common in Islamic heraldry). Purpure
                started out as a purplish gray -- described as "a mixture of all the
                other tinctures" in a number of early sources -- and wasn't terribly
                popular as such; true purples would not have been very colorfast on
                shields, and the colorfast purple fabric dyes were so expensive that
                only the serious uppermost crust could afford them.

                However, we do have some examples of both vert and purpure being used
                throughout medieval and renaissance Europe (East and West). So, while
                the heralds will often point out that the two tinctures are less common,
                and we may try to dampen enthusisasm for OVER-using them, we do NOT
                discourage their use."

                I hope this will sort things out...

                Kiri

                Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                >
                > Noble Cousin!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig!
                >
                > > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                > > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?
                >
                > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                >
                > Your Humble Servant
                > Solveig Throndardottir
                > Amateur Scholar
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Kiri hime! ... That changed after the modest proposal eliminated conflict checking against Papworth, &c. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 5, 2008
                  Kiri hime!

                  > I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things
                  > have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry
                  > using purple and green specifically because there weren't a whole
                  > lot of
                  > devices registered with the CoH that used those colors...the other
                  > colors and the metals aare heavily used.

                  That changed after the "modest proposal" eliminated conflict checking
                  against Papworth, &c.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Maddalena Alessandra
                  As someone who passed a European style  device purpure(purple) and blue(azure) per pale (vertical split) for the field and  with these same colors
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 5, 2008
                    As someone who passed a European style  device purpure(purple) and blue(azure) per pale (vertical split) for the field and  with these same colors and division for  the charge a badge fieldless(no specified background color), it passed a decade ago, but you get some looks especially from heralds if the colors kinda meld, such as mine and a friend who use a green and blue split field
                     
                    Maeda/Madd Alex

                    --- On Fri, 7/4/08, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote:







                    This is the person who handles submissions for the
                    Laurel Sovereign of Arms. According to him:

                    "Vert and purpure were certainly not common in period European heraldry. 
                    Purpure started out as a purplish gray ---- and wasn't terribly
                    popular true purples were so expensive

                    However, we do have some examples of both vert and purpure being used throughout medieval and renaissance Europe (East and West). So,  we may try to dampen enthusisasm for OVER-using them, we do NOT discourage their use."

                    Kiri

                    Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                    > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                    > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                    > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                    > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                    >
                    > Your Humble Servant
                    > Solveig Throndardottir
                    > Amateur Scholar

                     
                    .














                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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