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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Kamon Color

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... One piece badges can be any of the standard tinctures used by the college of arms. In particular: yellow, white,
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!
      > While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
      > fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
      > as to the rule on badges).
      One piece badges can be any of the standard "tinctures" used by the
      college of arms. In particular: yellow, white, red, blue, and black.
      Some other colors such as green and purple can also be used, but
      are generally discouraged. Some other colors such as orange are
      highly controversial.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Shhh! Just don t tell them. The real concern is that people not claim rank or status that was not awarded within the
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > I'd also check about registering a device that's part of one's
        > family's
        > heraldry. At least there used to be a rule against this...still
        > may be.

        Shhh! Just don't tell them. The real concern is that people not claim
        rank or status that was not awarded within the Society. The reality
        of Japanese kamon is that they are generally used widely and not
        restricted to specific individuals. Consequently, you should not
        expect to have the same sort of problems with them that people
        can have with Anglo-Norman practice.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar






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      • Elaine Koogler
        Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board? I do know that, in the
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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          Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
          Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board? I do
          know that, in the past at least, the use of these colors has been
          encouraged as they are not used as commonly as the others and are
          therefore more likely to pass as their use reduces the possibility of
          conflict.

          However, what the CoH does with Japanese heraldry is constantly
          changing. When I registered my heraldry originally, it was blazoned
          just like European heraldry and used all of the same rules/colors. A
          few years later, they changed the rules to say that mon would be
          registered without color and could be used in any color the owner
          preferred. Several years later, the rules again were changed to say
          that all Japanese mon (badge and device) had to be registered using only
          black and white. Again, the heraldry could be displayed in any color.
          More recently, they have gone back to the original rules, or so I
          understood. The thing that's been "fun" is that my blazons/emblazons
          have changed with each modification of the rules. It was during the all
          black and white period that I was granted my augmentation of arms...when
          I tried to register them as they were given to me (two golden dragons) I
          was told that I should register them in white/silver to conform to the
          rules regarding mon. I argued that the SCA rules said that I was a
          visitor to a European court and as such should use the augmentation as
          it was given to me! So....that's the way it's registered.

          Just a short history lesson on how Japanese heraldry has been done by
          the SCA over the past 30 years!

          Kiri (former Triton Principal Herald of Atlantia)

          Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
          >
          > Noble Cousin!
          >
          > Greetings from Solveig!
          > > While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
          > > fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
          > > as to the rule on badges).
          > One piece badges can be any of the standard "tinctures" used by the
          > college of arms. In particular: yellow, white, red, blue, and black.
          > Some other colors such as green and purple can also be used, but
          > are generally discouraged. Some other colors such as orange are
          > highly controversial.
          >
          > Your Humble Servant
          > Solveig Throndardottir
          > Amateur Scholar
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • Ezequiel
          Greetings! This is another reason I have come to love our culture and this site. Is interresting the way the CoH have made changes base on the needs of our SCA
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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            Greetings!
            This is another reason I have come to love our culture and this site.
            Is interresting the way the CoH have made changes base on the needs of
            our SCA culture.
            When my device passed the rule was B&W with the understanding that I
            could use it in any color that would clearly show it in my Japanese
            Garbs, and it was in Atlantia were I submitted.
            Today, I am not sure of the rules, I truely would like to know what
            they are doing with our submitions. Anyone have a clue?

            Humbly,
            -Sukeie
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly Japanese context, both colors are somewhat
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
              > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?

              I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
              Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
              have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
              purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Elaine Koogler
              I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry using purple and
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things
                have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry
                using purple and green specifically because there weren't a whole lot of
                devices registered with the CoH that used those colors...the other
                colors and the metals aare heavily used. Also encouraged were the
                unusual furs...plummety, etc. I even have one friend, a Countess, whose
                heraldry has a purple and green (divided per pale...vertically, for
                those of you who are unfamiliar with heraldic terminology) field! And,
                given that more and more heraldry is being registered, which means that
                bringing devices/badges clear of conflict, I find it hard to un is more
                difficult, I do not understand why they would do this. Yes, there is a
                restriction on orange as it does not conform with the 14th century basis
                for how we do heraldry in the SCA.

                However, it may have changed, so I will check with our current heraldic
                staff and inquire.

                Kiri

                Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                >
                > Noble Cousin!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig!
                >
                > > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                > > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?
                >
                > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                >
                > Your Humble Servant
                > Solveig Throndardottir
                > Amateur Scholar
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
              • Elaine Koogler
                I just heard back from one of the heralds who has, for several years, worked with the submission process (devices in particular) with the Wreath Herald. This
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                  I just heard back from one of the heralds who has, for several years,
                  worked with the submission process (devices in particular) with the
                  Wreath Herald. This is the person who handles submissions for the
                  Laurel Sovereign of Arms. According to him:

                  "Vert and purpure were certainly not common in period European heraldry.
                  There were practical problems with vert fields (they blended into the
                  background too well in most places), and the color was associated with
                  the Saracens (green is quite common in Islamic heraldry). Purpure
                  started out as a purplish gray -- described as "a mixture of all the
                  other tinctures" in a number of early sources -- and wasn't terribly
                  popular as such; true purples would not have been very colorfast on
                  shields, and the colorfast purple fabric dyes were so expensive that
                  only the serious uppermost crust could afford them.

                  However, we do have some examples of both vert and purpure being used
                  throughout medieval and renaissance Europe (East and West). So, while
                  the heralds will often point out that the two tinctures are less common,
                  and we may try to dampen enthusisasm for OVER-using them, we do NOT
                  discourage their use."

                  I hope this will sort things out...

                  Kiri

                  Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                  >
                  > Noble Cousin!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                  >
                  > > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                  > > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?
                  >
                  > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                  > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                  > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                  > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                  >
                  > Your Humble Servant
                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                  > Amateur Scholar
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Kiri hime! ... That changed after the modest proposal eliminated conflict checking against Papworth, &c. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 5, 2008
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                    Kiri hime!

                    > I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things
                    > have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry
                    > using purple and green specifically because there weren't a whole
                    > lot of
                    > devices registered with the CoH that used those colors...the other
                    > colors and the metals aare heavily used.

                    That changed after the "modest proposal" eliminated conflict checking
                    against Papworth, &c.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Maddalena Alessandra
                    As someone who passed a European style  device purpure(purple) and blue(azure) per pale (vertical split) for the field and  with these same colors
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 5, 2008
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                      As someone who passed a European style  device purpure(purple) and blue(azure) per pale (vertical split) for the field and  with these same colors and division for  the charge a badge fieldless(no specified background color), it passed a decade ago, but you get some looks especially from heralds if the colors kinda meld, such as mine and a friend who use a green and blue split field
                       
                      Maeda/Madd Alex

                      --- On Fri, 7/4/08, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote:







                      This is the person who handles submissions for the
                      Laurel Sovereign of Arms. According to him:

                      "Vert and purpure were certainly not common in period European heraldry. 
                      Purpure started out as a purplish gray ---- and wasn't terribly
                      popular true purples were so expensive

                      However, we do have some examples of both vert and purpure being used throughout medieval and renaissance Europe (East and West). So,  we may try to dampen enthusisasm for OVER-using them, we do NOT discourage their use."

                      Kiri

                      Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                      > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                      > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                      > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                      > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                      >
                      > Your Humble Servant
                      > Solveig Throndardottir
                      > Amateur Scholar

                       
                      .














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