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Re: Kamon Color

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  • wodeford
    ... If you re registering this with the SCA College of Heralds, it has to use the colors and metals used for traditional Western heraldry. Purple (purpure) and
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "chrish19572003" <chrish19572003@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > What is the correct color for at 16th century Kamon?

      If you're registering this with the SCA College of Heralds, it has to
      use the colors and metals used for traditional Western heraldry.
      Purple (purpure) and white (argent) are fine.

      Saionji no Hanae
      West Kingdom
    • Ezequiel
      While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious as to the rule on
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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        While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
        fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
        as to the rule on badges).

        Humbly,
        -Sukeie
      • Elaine Koogler
        I believe that the charge(s) need to be in color, but you ll have to check with the CoH. I d also check about registering a device that s part of one s
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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          I believe that the charge(s) need to be in color, but you'll have to
          check with the CoH.

          I'd also check about registering a device that's part of one's family's
          heraldry. At least there used to be a rule against this...still may be.

          Kiri

          Ezequiel wrote:
          >
          > While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
          > fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
          > as to the rule on badges).
          >
          > Humbly,
          > -Sukeie
          >
          >
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Although depictions of kamon in rolls of arms such as Daibukan are monochromatic and frequently simply outline
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > What is the correct color for at 16th century Kamon?

            Although depictions of kamon in rolls of arms such as Daibukan are
            monochromatic and frequently simply outline drawings, battle paintings,
            town paintings, &c. tell a different story. Typically kamon have up to
            three colors with high contrast. Typical colors are: White, black,
            red, and blue.

            > Additionally would an allied family use the the Mori red color as a
            > backgroungd for thier Kamon? Or would they use another color?

            I doubt that it goes either way. Just pick colors that you like.

            > Her choice would be to use a purple background with a white kamon.

            I recommend against using purple. Not only will it likely raise eyebrows
            at the College of Arms, there is also reason to believe that its use in
            pre-modern Japan was rather unusual.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... One piece badges can be any of the standard tinctures used by the college of arms. In particular: yellow, white,
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!
              > While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
              > fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
              > as to the rule on badges).
              One piece badges can be any of the standard "tinctures" used by the
              college of arms. In particular: yellow, white, red, blue, and black.
              Some other colors such as green and purple can also be used, but
              are generally discouraged. Some other colors such as orange are
              highly controversial.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Shhh! Just don t tell them. The real concern is that people not claim rank or status that was not awarded within the
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                > I'd also check about registering a device that's part of one's
                > family's
                > heraldry. At least there used to be a rule against this...still
                > may be.

                Shhh! Just don't tell them. The real concern is that people not claim
                rank or status that was not awarded within the Society. The reality
                of Japanese kamon is that they are generally used widely and not
                restricted to specific individuals. Consequently, you should not
                expect to have the same sort of problems with them that people
                can have with Anglo-Norman practice.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Elaine Koogler
                Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board? I do know that, in the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                  Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                  Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board? I do
                  know that, in the past at least, the use of these colors has been
                  encouraged as they are not used as commonly as the others and are
                  therefore more likely to pass as their use reduces the possibility of
                  conflict.

                  However, what the CoH does with Japanese heraldry is constantly
                  changing. When I registered my heraldry originally, it was blazoned
                  just like European heraldry and used all of the same rules/colors. A
                  few years later, they changed the rules to say that mon would be
                  registered without color and could be used in any color the owner
                  preferred. Several years later, the rules again were changed to say
                  that all Japanese mon (badge and device) had to be registered using only
                  black and white. Again, the heraldry could be displayed in any color.
                  More recently, they have gone back to the original rules, or so I
                  understood. The thing that's been "fun" is that my blazons/emblazons
                  have changed with each modification of the rules. It was during the all
                  black and white period that I was granted my augmentation of arms...when
                  I tried to register them as they were given to me (two golden dragons) I
                  was told that I should register them in white/silver to conform to the
                  rules regarding mon. I argued that the SCA rules said that I was a
                  visitor to a European court and as such should use the augmentation as
                  it was given to me! So....that's the way it's registered.

                  Just a short history lesson on how Japanese heraldry has been done by
                  the SCA over the past 30 years!

                  Kiri (former Triton Principal Herald of Atlantia)

                  Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                  >
                  > Noble Cousin!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                  > > While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
                  > > fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
                  > > as to the rule on badges).
                  > One piece badges can be any of the standard "tinctures" used by the
                  > college of arms. In particular: yellow, white, red, blue, and black.
                  > Some other colors such as green and purple can also be used, but
                  > are generally discouraged. Some other colors such as orange are
                  > highly controversial.
                  >
                  > Your Humble Servant
                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                  > Amateur Scholar
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Ezequiel
                  Greetings! This is another reason I have come to love our culture and this site. Is interresting the way the CoH have made changes base on the needs of our SCA
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                    Greetings!
                    This is another reason I have come to love our culture and this site.
                    Is interresting the way the CoH have made changes base on the needs of
                    our SCA culture.
                    When my device passed the rule was B&W with the understanding that I
                    could use it in any color that would clearly show it in my Japanese
                    Garbs, and it was in Atlantia were I submitted.
                    Today, I am not sure of the rules, I truely would like to know what
                    they are doing with our submitions. Anyone have a clue?

                    Humbly,
                    -Sukeie
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly Japanese context, both colors are somewhat
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig!

                      > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                      > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?

                      I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                      Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                      have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                      purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Elaine Koogler
                      I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry using purple and
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                        I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things
                        have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry
                        using purple and green specifically because there weren't a whole lot of
                        devices registered with the CoH that used those colors...the other
                        colors and the metals aare heavily used. Also encouraged were the
                        unusual furs...plummety, etc. I even have one friend, a Countess, whose
                        heraldry has a purple and green (divided per pale...vertically, for
                        those of you who are unfamiliar with heraldic terminology) field! And,
                        given that more and more heraldry is being registered, which means that
                        bringing devices/badges clear of conflict, I find it hard to un is more
                        difficult, I do not understand why they would do this. Yes, there is a
                        restriction on orange as it does not conform with the 14th century basis
                        for how we do heraldry in the SCA.

                        However, it may have changed, so I will check with our current heraldic
                        staff and inquire.

                        Kiri

                        Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                        >
                        > Noble Cousin!
                        >
                        > Greetings from Solveig!
                        >
                        > > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                        > > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?
                        >
                        > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                        > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                        > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                        > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                        >
                        > Your Humble Servant
                        > Solveig Throndardottir
                        > Amateur Scholar
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                      • Elaine Koogler
                        I just heard back from one of the heralds who has, for several years, worked with the submission process (devices in particular) with the Wreath Herald. This
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                          I just heard back from one of the heralds who has, for several years,
                          worked with the submission process (devices in particular) with the
                          Wreath Herald. This is the person who handles submissions for the
                          Laurel Sovereign of Arms. According to him:

                          "Vert and purpure were certainly not common in period European heraldry.
                          There were practical problems with vert fields (they blended into the
                          background too well in most places), and the color was associated with
                          the Saracens (green is quite common in Islamic heraldry). Purpure
                          started out as a purplish gray -- described as "a mixture of all the
                          other tinctures" in a number of early sources -- and wasn't terribly
                          popular as such; true purples would not have been very colorfast on
                          shields, and the colorfast purple fabric dyes were so expensive that
                          only the serious uppermost crust could afford them.

                          However, we do have some examples of both vert and purpure being used
                          throughout medieval and renaissance Europe (East and West). So, while
                          the heralds will often point out that the two tinctures are less common,
                          and we may try to dampen enthusisasm for OVER-using them, we do NOT
                          discourage their use."

                          I hope this will sort things out...

                          Kiri

                          Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                          >
                          > Noble Cousin!
                          >
                          > Greetings from Solveig!
                          >
                          > > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                          > > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?
                          >
                          > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                          > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                          > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                          > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                          >
                          > Your Humble Servant
                          > Solveig Throndardottir
                          > Amateur Scholar
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Kiri hime! ... That changed after the modest proposal eliminated conflict checking against Papworth, &c. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 5, 2008
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                            Kiri hime!

                            > I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things
                            > have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry
                            > using purple and green specifically because there weren't a whole
                            > lot of
                            > devices registered with the CoH that used those colors...the other
                            > colors and the metals aare heavily used.

                            That changed after the "modest proposal" eliminated conflict checking
                            against Papworth, &c.

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Maddalena Alessandra
                            As someone who passed a European style  device purpure(purple) and blue(azure) per pale (vertical split) for the field and  with these same colors
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 5, 2008
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                              As someone who passed a European style  device purpure(purple) and blue(azure) per pale (vertical split) for the field and  with these same colors and division for  the charge a badge fieldless(no specified background color), it passed a decade ago, but you get some looks especially from heralds if the colors kinda meld, such as mine and a friend who use a green and blue split field
                               
                              Maeda/Madd Alex

                              --- On Fri, 7/4/08, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote:







                              This is the person who handles submissions for the
                              Laurel Sovereign of Arms. According to him:

                              "Vert and purpure were certainly not common in period European heraldry. 
                              Purpure started out as a purplish gray ---- and wasn't terribly
                              popular true purples were so expensive

                              However, we do have some examples of both vert and purpure being used throughout medieval and renaissance Europe (East and West). So,  we may try to dampen enthusisasm for OVER-using them, we do NOT discourage their use."

                              Kiri

                              Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                              > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                              > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                              > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                              > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                              >
                              > Your Humble Servant
                              > Solveig Throndardottir
                              > Amateur Scholar

                               
                              .














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