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Kamon Color

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  • chrish19572003
    What is the correct color for at 16th century Kamon? My lady is thinking of registering her families Kamon as her SCA device. I have talked with her relatives
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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      What is the correct color for at 16th century Kamon?

      My lady is thinking of registering her families Kamon as her SCA
      device. I have talked with her relatives and they are not sure as to
      the colors the family was using in the SCA period.

      In the SCA period her family was allied with the Mori.

      Additionally would an allied family use the the Mori red color as a
      backgroungd for thier Kamon? Or would they use another color?

      Her choice would be to use a purple background with a white kamon

      Thank you
    • wodeford
      ... If you re registering this with the SCA College of Heralds, it has to use the colors and metals used for traditional Western heraldry. Purple (purpure) and
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "chrish19572003" <chrish19572003@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > What is the correct color for at 16th century Kamon?

        If you're registering this with the SCA College of Heralds, it has to
        use the colors and metals used for traditional Western heraldry.
        Purple (purpure) and white (argent) are fine.

        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdom
      • Ezequiel
        While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious as to the rule on
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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          While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
          fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
          as to the rule on badges).

          Humbly,
          -Sukeie
        • Elaine Koogler
          I believe that the charge(s) need to be in color, but you ll have to check with the CoH. I d also check about registering a device that s part of one s
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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            I believe that the charge(s) need to be in color, but you'll have to
            check with the CoH.

            I'd also check about registering a device that's part of one's family's
            heraldry. At least there used to be a rule against this...still may be.

            Kiri

            Ezequiel wrote:
            >
            > While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
            > fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
            > as to the rule on badges).
            >
            > Humbly,
            > -Sukeie
            >
            >
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Although depictions of kamon in rolls of arms such as Daibukan are monochromatic and frequently simply outline
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > What is the correct color for at 16th century Kamon?

              Although depictions of kamon in rolls of arms such as Daibukan are
              monochromatic and frequently simply outline drawings, battle paintings,
              town paintings, &c. tell a different story. Typically kamon have up to
              three colors with high contrast. Typical colors are: White, black,
              red, and blue.

              > Additionally would an allied family use the the Mori red color as a
              > backgroungd for thier Kamon? Or would they use another color?

              I doubt that it goes either way. Just pick colors that you like.

              > Her choice would be to use a purple background with a white kamon.

              I recommend against using purple. Not only will it likely raise eyebrows
              at the College of Arms, there is also reason to believe that its use in
              pre-modern Japan was rather unusual.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... One piece badges can be any of the standard tinctures used by the college of arms. In particular: yellow, white,
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!
                > While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
                > fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
                > as to the rule on badges).
                One piece badges can be any of the standard "tinctures" used by the
                college of arms. In particular: yellow, white, red, blue, and black.
                Some other colors such as green and purple can also be used, but
                are generally discouraged. Some other colors such as orange are
                highly controversial.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Shhh! Just don t tell them. The real concern is that people not claim rank or status that was not awarded within the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 3, 2008
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > I'd also check about registering a device that's part of one's
                  > family's
                  > heraldry. At least there used to be a rule against this...still
                  > may be.

                  Shhh! Just don't tell them. The real concern is that people not claim
                  rank or status that was not awarded within the Society. The reality
                  of Japanese kamon is that they are generally used widely and not
                  restricted to specific individuals. Consequently, you should not
                  expect to have the same sort of problems with them that people
                  can have with Anglo-Norman practice.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Elaine Koogler
                  Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board? I do know that, in the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                    Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                    Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board? I do
                    know that, in the past at least, the use of these colors has been
                    encouraged as they are not used as commonly as the others and are
                    therefore more likely to pass as their use reduces the possibility of
                    conflict.

                    However, what the CoH does with Japanese heraldry is constantly
                    changing. When I registered my heraldry originally, it was blazoned
                    just like European heraldry and used all of the same rules/colors. A
                    few years later, they changed the rules to say that mon would be
                    registered without color and could be used in any color the owner
                    preferred. Several years later, the rules again were changed to say
                    that all Japanese mon (badge and device) had to be registered using only
                    black and white. Again, the heraldry could be displayed in any color.
                    More recently, they have gone back to the original rules, or so I
                    understood. The thing that's been "fun" is that my blazons/emblazons
                    have changed with each modification of the rules. It was during the all
                    black and white period that I was granted my augmentation of arms...when
                    I tried to register them as they were given to me (two golden dragons) I
                    was told that I should register them in white/silver to conform to the
                    rules regarding mon. I argued that the SCA rules said that I was a
                    visitor to a European court and as such should use the augmentation as
                    it was given to me! So....that's the way it's registered.

                    Just a short history lesson on how Japanese heraldry has been done by
                    the SCA over the past 30 years!

                    Kiri (former Triton Principal Herald of Atlantia)

                    Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                    >
                    > Noble Cousin!
                    >
                    > Greetings from Solveig!
                    > > While we are on this subject; does anyone knows if badges that are
                    > > fieldless need to be color? (I already have a device I am just curious
                    > > as to the rule on badges).
                    > One piece badges can be any of the standard "tinctures" used by the
                    > college of arms. In particular: yellow, white, red, blue, and black.
                    > Some other colors such as green and purple can also be used, but
                    > are generally discouraged. Some other colors such as orange are
                    > highly controversial.
                    >
                    > Your Humble Servant
                    > Solveig Throndardottir
                    > Amateur Scholar
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • Ezequiel
                    Greetings! This is another reason I have come to love our culture and this site. Is interresting the way the CoH have made changes base on the needs of our SCA
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                      Greetings!
                      This is another reason I have come to love our culture and this site.
                      Is interresting the way the CoH have made changes base on the needs of
                      our SCA culture.
                      When my device passed the rule was B&W with the understanding that I
                      could use it in any color that would clearly show it in my Japanese
                      Garbs, and it was in Atlantia were I submitted.
                      Today, I am not sure of the rules, I truely would like to know what
                      they are doing with our submitions. Anyone have a clue?

                      Humbly,
                      -Sukeie
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly Japanese context, both colors are somewhat
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                        > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?

                        I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                        Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                        have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                        purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Elaine Koogler
                        I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry using purple and
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                          I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things
                          have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry
                          using purple and green specifically because there weren't a whole lot of
                          devices registered with the CoH that used those colors...the other
                          colors and the metals aare heavily used. Also encouraged were the
                          unusual furs...plummety, etc. I even have one friend, a Countess, whose
                          heraldry has a purple and green (divided per pale...vertically, for
                          those of you who are unfamiliar with heraldic terminology) field! And,
                          given that more and more heraldry is being registered, which means that
                          bringing devices/badges clear of conflict, I find it hard to un is more
                          difficult, I do not understand why they would do this. Yes, there is a
                          restriction on orange as it does not conform with the 14th century basis
                          for how we do heraldry in the SCA.

                          However, it may have changed, so I will check with our current heraldic
                          staff and inquire.

                          Kiri

                          Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                          >
                          > Noble Cousin!
                          >
                          > Greetings from Solveig!
                          >
                          > > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                          > > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?
                          >
                          > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                          > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                          > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                          > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                          >
                          > Your Humble Servant
                          > Solveig Throndardottir
                          > Amateur Scholar
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                        • Elaine Koogler
                          I just heard back from one of the heralds who has, for several years, worked with the submission process (devices in particular) with the Wreath Herald. This
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 4, 2008
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                            I just heard back from one of the heralds who has, for several years,
                            worked with the submission process (devices in particular) with the
                            Wreath Herald. This is the person who handles submissions for the
                            Laurel Sovereign of Arms. According to him:

                            "Vert and purpure were certainly not common in period European heraldry.
                            There were practical problems with vert fields (they blended into the
                            background too well in most places), and the color was associated with
                            the Saracens (green is quite common in Islamic heraldry). Purpure
                            started out as a purplish gray -- described as "a mixture of all the
                            other tinctures" in a number of early sources -- and wasn't terribly
                            popular as such; true purples would not have been very colorfast on
                            shields, and the colorfast purple fabric dyes were so expensive that
                            only the serious uppermost crust could afford them.

                            However, we do have some examples of both vert and purpure being used
                            throughout medieval and renaissance Europe (East and West). So, while
                            the heralds will often point out that the two tinctures are less common,
                            and we may try to dampen enthusisasm for OVER-using them, we do NOT
                            discourage their use."

                            I hope this will sort things out...

                            Kiri

                            Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                            >
                            > Noble Cousin!
                            >
                            > Greetings from Solveig!
                            >
                            > > Out of curiosity, is this prejudice against green and purple just for
                            > > Japanese heraldry or do you believe it to be across the board?
                            >
                            > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                            > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                            > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                            > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                            >
                            > Your Humble Servant
                            > Solveig Throndardottir
                            > Amateur Scholar
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                            Kiri hime! ... That changed after the modest proposal eliminated conflict checking against Papworth, &c. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 5, 2008
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                              Kiri hime!

                              > I hate to disagree with you, Solveig, but I know that, unless things
                              > have changed drastically, folks were encouraged to register heraldry
                              > using purple and green specifically because there weren't a whole
                              > lot of
                              > devices registered with the CoH that used those colors...the other
                              > colors and the metals aare heavily used.

                              That changed after the "modest proposal" eliminated conflict checking
                              against Papworth, &c.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Maddalena Alessandra
                              As someone who passed a European style  device purpure(purple) and blue(azure) per pale (vertical split) for the field and  with these same colors
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 5, 2008
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                                As someone who passed a European style  device purpure(purple) and blue(azure) per pale (vertical split) for the field and  with these same colors and division for  the charge a badge fieldless(no specified background color), it passed a decade ago, but you get some looks especially from heralds if the colors kinda meld, such as mine and a friend who use a green and blue split field
                                 
                                Maeda/Madd Alex

                                --- On Fri, 7/4/08, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote:







                                This is the person who handles submissions for the
                                Laurel Sovereign of Arms. According to him:

                                "Vert and purpure were certainly not common in period European heraldry. 
                                Purpure started out as a purplish gray ---- and wasn't terribly
                                popular true purples were so expensive

                                However, we do have some examples of both vert and purpure being used throughout medieval and renaissance Europe (East and West). So,  we may try to dampen enthusisasm for OVER-using them, we do NOT discourage their use."

                                Kiri

                                Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                                > I believe that the prejudice is across the board. Within a strictly
                                > Japanese context, both colors are somewhat unusual and may
                                > have at various times been restricted. I do not recall seeing
                                > purple and green used by banners in battle paintings.
                                >
                                > Your Humble Servant
                                > Solveig Throndardottir
                                > Amateur Scholar

                                 
                                .














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